Is negative punishment any more ineffective than positive punishment?
I don't know, you'd have to test it in its given application.
I mean, if P+ can actually create problems or make them worse, how much worse off is P- methods?
Lets be clear, physical, scary, painful, harmful P+ makes problems worse. P+ doesn't have to be any of these things, but it is the topic being discussed, however, I don't know any convenient way to use these adjectives to describe P-. So I'd agree P- is not worse than P+ in context.
While I agree the R+ almost always works on dogs, I wouldn't say P- is any more ineffective than P+, except on dog by dog basis.
I don't think the study attempted to illustrate the effective use of learning theory. What the study attempted to illustrate, and perhaps it's too obvious, is that the average dog guardian is not effective with methods x, y, and z. Your average dog guardian couldn't even define P- if they had to.
I mean, if I get up and leave for 10 minutes because Wally refuses a command, then I come back and give that command again and get instant and eager compliance - was P- ineffective?
I'd say it's to be determined. One trial doesn't illustrate anything to me.
what negative side effects would me getting up and leaving create - other than it just not working?
To a velcro dog, perhaps abandonment IS scary to them.
(And then, if he did it in response to the aversion, wouldn't that be closer R- instead?)
The difference between P+ and R- is the target behavior and duration of the aversion. They are always opposite.
"average dog" (what would that be, anyway - just curious?)
To me? Has a tail or once had a tail but that part of the body it is/was attached to wags, has four paws or once had four paws, barks-except if it is a Besenji, has a furred body even on the microscopic level, and likes to sniff bums.
- but P- is rather effective on him if only to "tell" him he failed to earn the reward.
I think if you've had a long, mutually beneficial relationship with a dog, P- can be effective, especially if used in conjunction with a no-reward-marker. Absent of that long, mutually beneficial relationship it's a waste of good training time. My opinion only.
Of course, P- works when the dog understands the requested behavior - but that would also seem to apply to P+ since no punishment can actually gain behavior.
Actually, I'd say P+ works better for known behaviors than P-. Say you want sit (a known behavior). Which is more effective? If I sit!, and the dog sits (P+), or walk out the room for a failed cue, I return, and the dog sits? IMO, the one that saves me time is more effective, but I have to define my criteria for you to understand that point.