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Can police dogs and protection dogs be trained with positive reinforcement methods? Seems most trainers in this field use mostly negative methods. Thoughts?
There's one of the big fundamental problems. To get the dog to release his bite, you'd have to find something that's more rewarding than the arm that's bleeding into his mouth. Good luck with that....I think the biting is positive rewards in itself. It's the outing that may require other attitudes.
That's what I'm talkin about. I don't think Spam will work.There's one of the big fundamental problems. To get the dog to release his bite, you'd have to find something that's more rewarding than the arm that's bleeding into his mouth. Good luck with that.
Off the top of my head, I would say it has a bad rap because people are idiots. A trained K9 officer practicing tried and true methods as part of a police program is vastly different from next-door-neighbor-Bob incorrectly employing a choke chain on walks and whacking his shelter mutt when it does something he doesn't like.Why does negative reinforcement get such a bad rap then if ultimately it works more effectively than positive training in certain instances?
I suspect that because most instances do not involve getting a dog to release a bloody arm. Those "certain instances" are the exception rather than the rule.Why does negative reinforcement get such a bad rap then if ultimately it works more effectively than positive training in certain instances?
And other instances, where physical correction may be appropriate, don't necessarily require such emphatic means. Patrol dog training can get pretty rough. There is a time to sow, and a time to reap.I suspect that because most instances do not involve getting a dog to release a bloody arm. Those "certain instances" are the exception rather than the rule.
Because negative reinforcement uses aversion, and those who use aversion don't typically balance Pavlov with Skinner, nor do they reason to.Why does negative reinforcement get such a bad rap then if ultimately it works more effectively than positive training in certain instances?
I've no idea. Watching dogs interact and teach I don't see plenty negative. Negative does mean bad, it doesn't mean its a negative thing to do I mean.Why does negative reinforcement get such a bad rap then if ultimately it works more effectively than positive training in certain instances?
That is very valid. Reminds me of this chic the other day. She was wanting to buy a prong collar and was with her man friend.Off the top of my head, I would say it has a bad rap because people are idiots. A trained K9 officer practicing tried and true methods as part of a police program is vastly different from next-door-neighbor-Bob incorrectly employing a choke chain on walks and whacking his shelter mutt when it does something he doesn't like.
Negative reinforcement is one of those tools that can be dangerous in the wrong hands. It's easier to advise everyone not to use it than to give people the option and risk someone screwing it up.
Can I conclude that done properly negative reinforcement methods can be more effective than positive methods?
No, you cannot. Setting up loaded questions like that doesn't get you anywhere.Can I conclude that done properly negative reinforcement methods can be more effective than positive methods?
It's only loaded if you are reading too much into it. I train only positively btw. I am always willing to learn which is why I am asking the question. I am just wondering if positive reinforcement has its limits.No, you cannot. Setting up loaded questions like that doesn't get you anywhere.
What you can conclude is that for one specific behaviour in one specific area of dog training it is necessary for the .000001% of dogs that are trained for it.
Nothing else.
There's a pretty key part to that. Your friend had a dog with a psychological problem and tried to treat it themselves with positive training and failed. They then went to a ***trainer*** that used negative training and got results. The key part there doesn't look to me to be the method, but the person employing it. They more than likely would have got much better results, and just as quickly if they had gone to a positive trainer instead of "trying some positive methods". DA is not something the average (or even the above average) dog owner is equipped to handle, through any method.It's only loaded if you are reading too much into it. I train only positively btw. I am always willing to learn which is why I am asking the question. I am just wondering if positive reinforcement has its limits.
My friend has a herding dog that is/was dog aggressive. Tried some positive methods which had some limited effects but then went to a negative trainer who uses a prong collar for little corrections. This seems to have worked for him, although I don't know how consistent he was trying to use the positive methods I suggested. Now this trainer suggested that for some dogs, positive methods just doesn't work as well. This trainer has won some awards for training police dogs and such.
Someday I would like to get a bigger dog when my lifestyle allows it so this got me thinking about what this trainer said.