[pacumming]

Ecollar training using stim, vibration for Dog Pulling, Jumping,, Counter surfing, Barking--need tips please

Of course there are tons of videos and some PDF files out there but I do not see any that really address in a step by step fashion (with an untrained dog in the video) to help prevent:

Dog Pulling

Barking

Dog jumping on people

Dog getting up on hind legs to counter surf.

Thanks for any advice. Would like to try myself with good advice before I go to a trainer.

Thank you
Peter

 

[Shell]

Step 1. Do not use a trainer who suggests an ecollar for training against those behaviors.

Step 2. Should you accidentally hire a trainer who then suggests an ecollar for those behaviors, refer to Step 1 and disengage.

 

[3GSD4IPO]

I use an e collar in training. NONE of those behaviors warrant and e collar. That is NOT what an e collar is used for.

ALL of those behaviors require training first. Going to the e collar (buzz or stim) in all of those situations is incorrect use and is entirely unfair to the dog (I don't care how many other trainers use and e collar for any of those things, that is NOT what it should be used for).

Dog pulling:
Train the dog not to pull. Change direction to keep the line slack. Teach the dog to focus on you. If the dog pulls, do not pull back as it creates oppositional reflex.

Barking:
Why is the dog barking? This training is many faceted. Training a dog not to bark depends on why the dog is barking.

Jumping on people:
Teach a reliable lie down or Platz. If in the house, crate the dog when you have guests over. Dog does not need to interact with guests.

Counter Surfing:
NEVER leave anything on the counter that the dog would want. NEVER. Keep food in the refrigerator or in a cabinet. Never leave anything on the counter like dirty dishes. Counter surfing is self rewarding to the dog because people leave stuff on the counter for the dog to get into.

If you are using an e collar for the above behaviors you are using it WRONG. You need to train your dog and you need to learn how to train your dog first.

What do I use an e collar for? Only for reinforcing a command cue AFTER the dog completely knows a command cue and elects to blow off the cue. This happens when the dog is older, has been taught the command in several locations and has generalized the command.

I have trained several dogs to a high degree of obedience in a sport that used to be called Schutzhund. I have titled a few dogs. My dogs, for the most part, do not learn about the e collar until they are older. Over age of one. Current competition dog never saw the e collar until age 2. It is used sparingly and the stim level should not make the dog yelp. You should know what you are doing when using an e collar.

 

[BKaymuttleycrew]

Ecollar training using stim, vibration for Dog Pulling, Jumping,, Counter surfing, Barking--need tips please

Of course there are tons of videos and some PDF files out there but I do not see any that really address in a step by step fashion (with an untrained dog in the video) to help prevent:

Dog Pulling

Barking

Dog jumping on people

Dog getting up on hind legs to counter surf.

Thanks for any advice. Would like to try myself with good advice before I go to a trainer.

Thank you
Peter

Peter, my best "good" advice to you regarding any & all of these problematic behaviors is to find yourself a wonderful, positive reinforcement based, well & modernly educated trainer who would NEVER recommend you use an E/Stim/vibration collar to help you work through the above mentioned 'problems' (or for any other reason, quite frankly). What you want to do is help your dog learn what you DO want him/her to do - not simply try to extinguish the problematic behaviors via painful/scary punishments. If you could post your general location, I'm sure there are posters who could assist you in searching for a qualified & humane trainer to assist you.

 

[pandora]

this is exactly the reason I think these things should be banned they can be picked up by anyone and used without any clue how to do it or why or when it is appropriate if ever.
now you have a dog who is being zapped at random for no reason at all( in his eyes)the poor dog has got no clue why it is suddenly being electrocuted, this amounts to abuse and I'm sorry if the OP doesn't like that but electrocuting your dog is no replacement for training.

 

[petpeeve]

I use an e collar in training. NONE of those behaviors warrant and e collar. That is NOT what an e collar is used for.

ALL of those behaviors require training first. Going to the e collar (buzz or stim) in all of those situations is incorrect use and is entirely unfair to the dog (I don't care how many other trainers use and e collar for any of those things, that is NOT what it should be used for).

Dog pulling:
Train the dog not to pull. Change direction to keep the line slack. Teach the dog to focus on you. If the dog pulls, do not pull back as it creates oppositional reflex.

Barking:
Why is the dog barking? This training is many faceted. Training a dog not to bark depends on why the dog is barking.

Jumping on people:
Teach a reliable lie down or Platz. If in the house, crate the dog when you have guests over. Dog does not need to interact with guests.

Counter Surfing:
NEVER leave anything on the counter that the dog would want. NEVER. Keep food in the refrigerator or in a cabinet. Never leave anything on the counter like dirty dishes. Counter surfing is self rewarding to the dog because people leave stuff on the counter for the dog to get into.

If you are using an e collar for the above behaviors you are using it WRONG. You need to train your dog and you need to learn how to train your dog first.

What do I use an e collar for? Only for reinforcing a command cue AFTER the dog completely knows a command cue and elects to blow off the cue. This happens when the dog is older, has been taught the command in several locations and has generalized the command.

I have trained several dogs to a high degree of obedience in a sport that used to be called Schutzhund. I have titled a few dogs. My dogs, for the most part, do not learn about the e collar until they are older. Over age of one. Current competition dog never saw the e collar until age 2. It is used sparingly and the stim level should not make the dog yelp. You should know what you are doing when using an e collar.

Your comments and recommendations above clearly contradict the statements you made in another recent thread, here ...
My dog barks at me when I want to leave but stays alone...

 

[3GSD4IPO]

this is exactly the reason I think these things should be banned they can be picked up by anyone and used without any clue how to do it or why or when it is appropriate if ever.
now you have a dog who is being zapped at random for no reason at all( in his eyes)the poor dog has got no clue why it is suddenly being electrocuted, this amounts to abuse and I'm sorry if the OP doesn't like that but electrocuting your dog is no replacement for training.

The issue with this response is it is "all or nothing."

While the use the OP wishes to use the e collar for is not an appropriate use for this tool, banning the equipment is not the answer.

I can assure you that a ban on equipment will not ban bad training or inhumane punitive methods.

Fact is, there are things people do to dogs that can make inappropriate use of this particular training tool seem a walk in the park.

Your comments and recommendations above clearly contradict the statements you made in another recent thread, here ...
My dog barks at me when I want to leave but stays alone...

We were discussing an entirely different e collar in that thread and I said I hesitated to use it and why. Different dog and different scenario. I also said I hesitated to use this on a small dog. I honestly do not see a contradiction or a connection.

Those who have decided to vilify the use of any aversive tool will, of course, make any discussion into something to vilify that tool being discussed.

While there are E collars that also have an antibark feature I never use those. Keep the two collars separate IF you use a bark collar. My current dog rarely wears a bark collar (at training when he can hear protection phase I put it on). the older dog never wears one. Mostly those collars hang on a hook in the garage and that is with a breed KNOWN for being vocal.

In this post as for the barking I asked some questions because you need to know a bit more before recommending any sort of fix. I did not recommend a barking fix here for that reason.

In fact, in this entire thread I recommended TRAINING the dog and not using an aversive approach.

 

[Kensi]

The best and most effective thing to do is simply redirect him to something else. keep him on a leash during training to prevent him doing it, eventually the leash will be unnecessary.

 

[pandora]

The issue with this response is it is "all or nothing."

While the use the OP wishes to use the e collar for is not an appropriate use for this tool, banning the equipment is not the answer.

I can assure you that a ban on equipment will not ban bad training or inhumane punitive methods.

Fact is, there are things people do to dogs that can make inappropriate use of this particular training tool seem a walk in the park.

And all these bad training methods (aversive alpha shocking shouting throwing things etc etc) should be addresed and confined to the past but simply pointing out that someone else is doing something worse than electrocuting their dog is not an excuse to allow the misuse of these things to go unchecked.

You cant drive a car without a test without making sure you are competent and yet anyone can pick up an e-collar and use it anyway they see fit inflicting pain and suffering on a dog without any check or test to check their competency level.. See my point?

Luckily this isnt an argument in my country because like many civilised placed the use of e-collars and prong collars are banned here anyway, I feel if you have to use pain or suffering to train your dog you shouldnt have a dog anyway. If you wouldnt do it to a child dont do it to a dog...

 

[petpeeve]

We were discussing an entirely different e collar in that thread and I said I hesitated to use it and why.

Entirely different?

Sorry, but I don't see any real difference. Only in that the shock is 'controlled' by the dog in an anti-bark situation, whereas the shock is 'controlled' by the handler in the more conventional applications.

BOTH .. SHOCK the dog. There is NO fundamental difference. Both carry the exact same dangers and risks.

Therefore you are contradicting yourself from thread to thread. Your philosophies are inconsistent, and even hypocritical IMO. Please feel free to indicate where and /or how I am mistaken.

 

[3GSD4IPO]

Entirely different?

Sorry, but I don't see any real difference. Only in that the shock is 'controlled' by the dog in an anti-bark situation, whereas the shock is 'controlled' by the handler in the more conventional applications.

BOTH .. SHOCK the dog. There is NO fundamental difference. Both carry the exact same dangers and risks.

Therefore you are contradicting yourself from thread to thread. Your philosophies are inconsistent, and even hypocritical IMO. Please feel free to indicate where and /or how I am mistaken.

Very different in how the correction is applied.

The dog understands the difference. The dog knows when the correction comes from the handler and when it does not. The scenarios are different. The environments are different. The level of stim is usually set differently as well.

Have you ever experienced avery low stim from an electronic training collar? I have. It is less than the shock you get from a door knob when you walk across a carpet. Way less!

Some will say dog doesn't know the difference.. e collar is an e collar.

I take my dog out of the truck. I put the training collar on and take the bark collar off. I walk on the field. I send the dog into the blind with the helper. Dog's job is to BARK and BARK at the helper (called bark and hold). My dog does a BEAUTIFUL bark and hold. He knows the difference. They all do!

Even the people who have training collars that are also bark collars... dual purpose.. have no issue with barking on the field, wearing the same collar that stims (when set for it) for barking that is also used for corrections in training. Setting is changed with the handset.

Those who malign this tool do not understand it as well as the dogs do.

I stand by my statements. The collar is a tool (flat, prong, fursaver, electronic). Your voice is a tool. The leash is a tool. Food is a tool. Toys are tools. None is static. None are one size fits all. Some are more appropriate depending on the task at hand or the situation.

In this case, the OP desires to use a tool inappropriate for the behaviors he wants to correct. The tool he wants to use will likely make a bigger mess and not fix anything, which is what I said.

 

[3GSD4IPO]

And all these bad training methods (aversive alpha shocking shouting throwing things etc etc) should be addresed and confined to the past but simply pointing out that someone else is doing something worse than electrocuting their dog is not an excuse to allow the misuse of these things to go unchecked.

You cant drive a car without a test without making sure you are competent and yet anyone can pick up an e-collar and use it anyway they see fit inflicting pain and suffering on a dog without any check or test to check their competency level.. See my point?

Luckily this isnt an argument in my country because like many civilised placed the use of e-collars and prong collars are banned here anyway, I feel if you have to use pain or suffering to train your dog you shouldnt have a dog anyway. If you wouldnt do it to a child dont do it to a dog...

You have no understanding of the tool and, thankfully, I do not live wherever it is that you do!

Here kids drive farm machinery on the road.. no license. They rarely have accidents. Licensed drivers? A whole different story!

If you saw my dog in training you would see there is no "pain and suffering." In fact, you would probably not even think he had an e collar on.

 

[storyist]

Well, I've got to say maybe I'm a little nuts, but I once put a bark collar around my neck and managed to trigger it, and the shock was a lot worse than static from touching a door knob after walking over wool carpet. You couldn't pay me to do that again, and I choose not to use anything like that on my dogs. Of course my own dogs aren't yappers, but that's a different discussion. I did use citronella bark collars on rescues, and I know totally anti-aversive people would also eschew that use.

However, I'd like to point out that calling use of an e-collar "electrocuting your dog" is never going to change anyone's mind. Wild exaggeration such as that actually weakens the argument because we all know that's not what happens. You electrocute something, it's dead.

From what I've observed one problem with dogs is that when adrenaline is flowing they show no or reduced reaction to pain. My guess is that's true of humans too but for us it only happens in situations like extreme athletic competition or combat. I see it in my own older dog right now. She's getting more and more arthritic and is limping badly in ordinary situations. (She's going to the vet Wednesday for a procedure I hope will help.) However, when I walk her, if she spots deer or the neighbor's horses start running, she's magically sound again. So I think when you get a dog really aroused in a training situation, the reaction to an e-collar is going to be much less than if that dog is sitting peacefully on your living room floor, which makes us think it's not a big deal to them. But since none of us will ever be a dog, how can we know what they think once the arousing situation is over? Does my arthritic girl think, "Oh hell, everything feels worse now, wish I hadn't done that"?

 

[3GSD4IPO]

I should say that the e collar you tested on yourself was set very very high.. 🤦😳 the ones I have I can set at different levels. Some actually automatically increase level if the dog keeps barking. I won't use those.

The bark collar is typically higher set than the training collar in order to be effective.

The training collar (double box) is the one I tested. I use a double box because I can use a lot less stim to get results.

I Iave had Tritronics brand (now Garmin) and E Collar Technologies. The stim differently. Different temperament dogs react differently to each type. Currently I have a Pro-900.

Dogs and deer.. I use an e collar when I hike in the woods or anytime the dogs are out of the yard. I am surrounded by acres and miles woods. If a dog doesn't come back when hot on a deer he could run for miles. The e collar insures control if he gets on one and doesn't hear the recall.

Two neighbors here lost dogs (as in gone.. never found) that took off in those woods after deer.

They are never sorry. My old dog goes after them just so far. She twisted something last night.. came in on 3 legs. Improved some but when I took them out in the yard for "last pee of the night" she was already to go again.. and she was lame. No regrets. Dogs.

 

[storyist]

You may be right about the setting on the bark collar I tested on myself, but it was years ago and doesn't matter for me. I decided way back then it was something I wouldn't use and as time passes I'm very much going in the other direction. I do think anyone who decides to use one ought to try it for their own self.

As to deer, maybe it's a breed thing, but the one of my Rotties that had the chance to take off after deer didn't go far. Once she saw the deer were increasing the distance from her, she gave up. This dog I've been walking off leash during the lockdowns is 8 and has had obedience training for at least 7 of those years. It surprised me when she came when we jumped some deer, but after starting her run after them, she did. And then just the other day when my neighbor's horses started chasing each other in the pasture next to where we were walking she did something similar - my panicked shouting of her name caused her to hesitate and start to turn, but the temptation was too great and she turned back and started for the horses again. When it finally occurred to me to actually use her obedience recall command, she came and sat in front. That doesn't mean I plan to ever let either of those situations happen again. It's a matter of carefully scoping the environment before we set out and staying aware through the walk.

Of course, if the distraction was a squirrel, it would be hopeless - but then neither dog nor other animal could possibly get hurt if it was a squirrel.

 

[LeoRose]

Here kids drive farm machinery on the road.. no license. They rarely have accidents. Licensed drivers? A whole different story!

They don't have as many accidents because farm equipment doesn't go 70 mph. Put those same kids behind the wheel of a car, and it's an entirely different story.

 

[BKaymuttleycrew]

Dogs and deer.. I use an e collar when I hike in the woods or anytime the dogs are out of the yard. I am surrounded by acres and miles woods. If a dog doesn't come back when hot on a deer he could run for miles. The e collar insures control if he gets on one and doesn't hear the recall.

OK - here's my question (and I've asked this of you before, but have never gotten a satisfactory answer...) How does the e collar 'insure' control if the dog is in such a high state of drive that s/he simply ignores the 'stim' that you apply?

Your dog takes off after a deer - you 'stim' - dog ignores - you increase the 'stim' - dog ignores - you increase the 'stim' - dog ignores - etc... etc... etc... until dog is out of range of your e collar. Seriously, there are some dogs out there that will blow off that 'stim' unless it is SO INCREDIBALLY painful it takes them down (I have owned such a dog...) What do you do in such a situation with such a dog? And don't say "Well, I train the behavior better to begin with" We are talking about a highly trained dog (whether you believe that or not) who simply does NOT respond to painful threats.

I threw pain in the trash & found a better way.

 

[Shell]

if by "does not hear the recall" 3GSD means
that literally, then a low stim or vibe can be an option for recalling a dog out of voice range or when noise is unacceptable. That would not mean the same thing as the dog blowing off recall and getting progressively stronger shocks.

If there is high ambient noise, high winds and rain or snow, if noise would disrupt hunting success, or the dog has hearing loss, then I can see the use of a long range "pager" so to speak

 

[3GSD4IPO]

OK - here's my question (and I've asked this of you before, but have never gotten a satisfactory answer...) How does the e collar 'insure' control if the dog is in such a high state of drive that s/he simply ignores the 'stim' that you apply?

Your dog takes off after a deer - you 'stim' - dog ignores - you increase the 'stim' - dog ignores - you increase the 'stim' - dog ignores - etc... etc... etc... until dog is out of range of your e collar. Seriously, there are some dogs out there that will blow off that 'stim' unless it is SO INCREDIBALLY painful it takes them down (I have owned such a dog...) What do you do in such a situation with such a dog? And don't say "Well, I train the behavior better to begin with" We are talking about a highly trained dog (whether you believe that or not) who simply does NOT respond to painful threats.

I threw pain in the trash & found a better way.

There are dogs that are unresponsive to e collar stim when in drive. I have watched dogs like this on the training field with a helper present. Some of these dogs DO respond to corrections made personal such as prong collar corrections or even the handler getting in thr dog's face (they respond to this because of the dog-handler relationship). Some of these dogs are not good sport prospects. Some would make excellent police patrol dogs in dangerous neighborhoods or in prison work.

Depends on the dog. Each dog is a bit different.

In the case of e collar and deer, I walk out the door with the handset at a high setting. In obedience (depending on what we are doing) a 6-8 level setting is all that is needed. In protection, 19-23 is what is needed. We walk out the door and deer are possible? 37 is the setting. On this dog.

I know other dogs that need 25 in obedience.. 35 in protection.. 80 on deer (similar collar as mine). One person I know wants to use the stim to teach an aversion to deer.. and will seek to hurt the dog if he goes for a deer. That person also wonders why their dog lacks speed and power in obedience training.. 🤦 Too much pressure.

Be aware that the dog is CALLED FIRST. If the dog responds, NO STIM is used. If the dog does not come, Stim is used. It is already set high enough. Usually, my dog recalls. This is also in a highly trained dog, not a very young dog that needs training. Young dog should not be put in this situation and should be on leash.

How to know how high? Experience. Knowing the dog. That is the only answer I can give. A handler that is increasing stim as they are recalling is not how it's done and indicates lack of both knowledge and experience. Bad handling. Maybe bad training. Probably both.

I will also add the dog was off leash e collar recall trained at another point in his training in a safely enclosed area. This may have occurred at an age younger than I like to start e collar training if warranted and depending on the dog. Recall is non negotiable and is trained a LOT well ahead of collar recall training.

Some dogs never need e collar recall training. Some dogs are too fearful to be off leash.. they could spook and run and never come back. E collar would make things worse.
Other dogs are never exposed to walks off leash, wildlife, woods or farm fields. Heck.. some people are never exposed to those things either. I think sad for both but JMO.

 

[BKaymuttleycrew]

There are dogs that are unresponsive to e collar stim when in drive. I have watched dogs like this on the training field with a helper present. Some of these dogs DO respond to corrections made personal such as prong collar corrections or even the handler getting in thr dog's face (they respond to this because of the dog-handler relationship). Some of these dogs are not good sport prospects. Some would make excellent police patrol dogs in dangerous neighborhoods or in prison work.

Depends on the dog. Each dog is a bit different.

In the case of e collar and deer, I walk out the door with the handset at a high setting. In obedience (depending on what we are doing) a 6-8 level setting is all that is needed. In protection, 19-23 is what is needed. We walk out the door and deer are possible? 37 is the setting. On this dog.

I know other dogs that need 25 in obedience.. 35 in protection.. 80 on deer (similar collar as mine). One person I know wants to use the stim to teach an aversion to deer.. and will seek to hurt the dog if he goes for a deer. That person also wonders why their dog lacks speed and power in obedience training.. 🤦 Too much pressure.

Be aware that the dog is CALLED FIRST. If the dog responds, NO STIM is used. If the dog does not come, Stim is used. It is already set high enough. Usually, my dog recalls. This is also in a highly trained dog, not a very young dog that needs training. Young dog should not be put in this situation and should be on leash.

How to know how high? Experience. Knowing the dog. That is the only answer I can give. A handler that is increasing stim as they are recalling is not how it's done and indicates lack of both knowledge and experience. Bad handling. Maybe bad training. Probably both.

I will also add the dog was off leash e collar recall trained at another point in his training in a safely enclosed area. This may have occurred at an age younger than I like to start e collar training if warranted and depending on the dog. Recall is non negotiable and is trained a LOT well ahead of collar recall training.

Some dogs never need e collar recall training. Some dogs are too fearful to be off leash.. they could spook and run and never come back. E collar would make things worse.
Other dogs are never exposed to walks off leash, wildlife, woods or farm fields. Heck.. some people are never exposed to those things either. I think sad for both but JMO.

OK, so in other words, you have no problem cranking (previously setting) that sucker up high enough to deliver an intensely painful shock as a 'correction' should the dog not immediately respond to your recall. Thank you for finally coming out & admitting that you don't mind hurting your dog in the name of instant obedience in a real world setting.

I will continue to find alternate methods which work. Heck, if they can do snake aversion training with positive methods, I'm sure you could come up with a way to get your dog to come back to you without shocking him, but whatever. You have your way & I know you're not going to change. Just don't claim you're not using pain to train. If you're going to do it, own it.