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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I am posting a video I saw on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiohmGqNgK0&NR=1
I know that there are several people who use e-collars on here. I myself have used them but this video just upsets me. I see a dog that is showing stress signals not a happy working dog. I see him panting, licking his lips, looking away as if looking for help. I know that learning something you don't necessarily want to do is stressful. I guess I cannot help asking "what is the point of making a dog do this?" I mean, just because you can FORCE a dog to do something, should we? just for the sake of doing it. Service dogs are often force trained because they MUST pick up items that could be life and death for the recipient of the dog. I don't know, maybe it is just me. I see a very unhappy dog in this video and cannot help but think there are better ways to train. I also can' t help but think making dogs do somethings is just pointless and borders on being cruel. What are your thoughts?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
that is the one smarty pants. I think it is fixed now. :)
 

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Smarty pants says the man in the video is not a smarty pants. Smarty pants says that he is probably dumber than a monkey.

That is clearly a frightened dog with a guy that gets off on forcing a dog around.
 

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Inga, you know I use an e-collar and have for many many years, however, I am personally NOT a fan of Fred Hassan or his methods. Never have been.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
LOL smarty pants Rbark. I find this so upsetting. I just don't see the point of it. I feel bad for the dog. Guess to some that would make me a wimp. I will hold my head high and be a wimp then.
Reno, I can see a place for the use of an e-collar for off leash recalls and such. I just don't see the point as shown in this video. I just want to steal that dog. :(
 

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LOL smarty pants Rbark. I find this so upsetting. I just don't see the point of it. I feel bad for the dog. Guess to some that would make me a wimp. I will hold my head high and be a wimp then.
Reno, I can see a place for the use of an e-collar for off leash recalls and such. I just don't see the point as shown in this video. I just want to steal that dog. :(
His training methods are very controversial in the world of K9 training.
 

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Having force broke dogs to retreive all except one done without using an e-collar I can say in my opinion this man is an idiot. The 1st basic kindergarten rule is it should be distraction free so you and dog can concentrate on each other. This dog was not even to the point of opening his mouth and actually reaching for an object. You only get dog reaching for and taking one object reliably before ever introducing a multitude of objects and why would you want dog balanced on a chair and have dogs whining and carrying on and people talking. It's idiots like this that hurt trainers all over the world. Why in doG's name would you want work like that to be on the internet. There is nothing controversial about stupidity.
 

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Fred is the owner of Sit Means Sit dog training...and he's an idiot. I've used an e-collar, and I DO see their use...but there is no point doing it for retrieves unless you're WAY out in the field and don't have your dog on a line.

This is just ridiculous :-/
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Well I am certainly glad that it wasn't me alone that felt this way. This is just plain sick in my opinion and this man should be made to wear the collar himself while someone forces him do ridiculous tasks. I can't believe he hasn't been brought up on charges of abuse. Instead he makes money selling this type of training to other cruel people.
 

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This dog was not even to the point of opening his mouth and actually reaching for an object. You only get dog reaching for and taking one object reliably before ever introducing a multitude of objects and why would you want dog balanced on a chair and have dogs whining and carrying on and people talking.
The way I learned it is that you teach "conditioned hold" (ideally w/a paint roller or small bumper) before introducing force--though there is often a small amount of force involved in getting the dog to take an object. The dog should be reliably performing OB commands without dropping the object. And the e-collar, if it is used at all, is the almost last thing to be introduced. Many trainers don't even collar condition a dog until after he is FF'd.
 

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I tried using force on Strauss (at the advice of others) for the retrieve and ended up with him going "F you, I won't play if you treat me that way!" I may have eventually gotten him to retrieve, but I wouldn't have the ecstatic go out and return if I had.

I ended up clicker training him through it, and his retrieve is fantastic. I never forced the object in his mouth, he started reaching and taking it on his own.
 

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I could only watch 2 minutes of that crap. I am not familiar with that guy, nor do I want be. I don't see how that poor dog is learning anything other than that holding things in his mouth for someone is not fun or rewarding in any way. What the heck does that teach a dog????? Seriously! It just makes me so angry that there are so many out there who feel that the end justifies the means with "training", whether it be with dogs, horses, or monkeys.... They don't care HOW they get there, as long as they get there. It is obviously worth it to some people to "achieve results" by coercion over trust and guidance. To me it is just plain lazy and like Rbark said (I like Rbark :) ) that guy is probably dumber than a monkey. Of course that is kind of insulting to monkeys. I actually LIKE monkeys.
 

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The way I learned it is that you teach "conditioned hold" (ideally w/a paint roller or small bumper) before introducing force--though there is often a small amount of force involved in getting the dog to take an object. The dog should be reliably performing OB commands without dropping the object. And the e-collar, if it is used at all, is the almost last thing to be introduced. Many trainers don't even collar condition a dog until after he is FF'd.
Yes 1st the dog has to be taught to open mouth then to hold object then to actually reach forward for object. The Rott on video was not even opening mouth reliably and this person (who I am not going to mention the word trainer with)was trying to bounce different stuff at him. Only reason I ever used a e-collar is the one dog would not open her mouth with the accepted methods used then. The stuff that weirds me out is the youtubes I have watched by trainers that I would not classify as rank amateurs.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Yes 1st the dog has to be taught to open mouth then to hold object then to actually reach forward for object. The Rott on video was not even opening mouth reliably and this person (who I am not going to mention the word trainer with)was trying to bounce different stuff at him. Only reason I ever used a e-collar is the one dog would not open her mouth with the accepted methods used then. The stuff that weirds me out is the youtubes I have watched by trainers that I would not classify as rank amateurs.
See wvasko that is what bothers me the most. People are forever searching the net for info on training dogs. Sadly, many of those folks are also looking for a quick fix and are easily duped into believing it is not only the best way but the only option of properly training a dog. People all over are buying e-collars, slapping them on their dogs and shocking away. All expecting that no time is needed for immediate results. Well, that is true actually, immediate results follow the use of e-collars. Often those results are NOT the ones the people set out to achieve. It was upsetting to see the dog in the video because it was obviously NOT understanding what was even expected of him. He was NOT opening his mouth and taking the items willingly at any point. He was NOT a willing participant in this training. I want my dogs to be happy. Rottweiler's like to work (usually) and this dog was just looking for a way out of it's abuse. Too bad he didn't think of maybe tearing into the guy holding the remote. He was, after all, getting shocked constantly anyway. Is it mean for me to wish for such a thing? Sadly, the dog would suffer the ultimate price. I am sorry, this was just very upsetting to me. :(
 

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See wvasko that is what bothers me the most. People are forever searching the net for info on training dogs. Sadly, many of those folks are also looking for a quick fix and are easily duped into believing it is not only the best way but the only option of properly training a dog. People all over are buying e-collars, slapping them on their dogs and shocking away. All expecting that no time is needed for immediate results. Well, that is true actually, immediate results follow the use of e-collars. Often those results are NOT the ones the people set out to achieve. It was upsetting to see the dog in the video because it was obviously NOT understanding what was even expected of him. He was NOT opening his mouth and taking the items willingly at any point. He was NOT a willing participant in this training. I want my dogs to be happy. Rottweiler's like to work (usually) and this dog was just looking for a way out of it's abuse. Too bad he didn't think of maybe tearing into the guy holding the remote. He was, after all, getting shocked constantly anyway. Is it mean for me to wish for such a thing? Sadly, the dog would suffer the ultimate price. I am sorry, this was just very upsetting to me. :(
Inga
as you know the golden rule of dog work is dog must be shown what it is you want them to do, this dog had no idea what was going on. H*ll I had no idea what the jerk wanted. The other youtube I watched was by a Brad somebody(don't remember his name, in Canada I think) who was heeling a dog and smacking him on his head. I didn't know what he was doing either.
 

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I have been posting about my experiences with the e-collar during the past week.

I just got it last Sunday, and the results have been remarkable. I am not a professional trainer, just a guy with a reasonably obedient dog who I wanted to be able to walk off leash reliably.

Here are my personal thoughts

1) The ecollar is an amazing powerful tool that can train your dog to be reliable off leash, and it can do it better and faster than any other training method currently available.

2) The dog must be conditioned to the collar by allowing it to wear the collar for a few days or longer before using it so it doesn't learn that the collar is the cause of the simulation and then only be reliable when wearing it. I did not do this and I do not yet know if it was a fatal mistake.

3) I will only use it to train the dog to be reliable off leash, to "wait", to "come", to "move in my direction", and to "let's go" if it has stopped and is falling behind. Also to not run after other dogs and people and rabbits/squirrels/cats/etc using the "wait" or "no" command.

4) Only use it at the maximum necessary stimulation which is probably around 5 out of 10 on the dial for a midsized dog, and only use it to firm up behaviors that you are completely sure the dog already knows.

5) If the dog is freaking out, scared, appears to be in pain, and/or is not responding as you might expect then STOP using it and get help from someone who knows what they're doing.

Again, these are my personal experience, and your mileage may vary.
 
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