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One of my favorite thoughts on the subject of shock/e-collars:

To use shock as an effective dog training method you will need:
A thorough understanding of canine behavior.
A thorough understanding of learning theory.
Impeccable timing.
And if you have those three things, you don't need a shock collar.
by Dr. Ian Dunbar

Not to mention that it has been scientifically proven that training with one is detrimental to the dog. (I've already posted a link to numerous articles in a different thread on this subject.) And, yes, I know that proponents will argue "You don't train behaviors with one, you simply correct the dog with it after he already knows the commands & refuses to comply." Yeah, I get it. It's a lot easier to blame the dog for his 'mistakes' and punish him into submission than it is to actually figure out what went wrong, why there was a breakdown in communication and come up with a modified training plan to fix the issue. Much easier to just push a button & get "results". Problem is, dogs aren't smart phones that can be programmed with a button to do exactly what you want when you want. They are living, breathing, sentient beings with a mind of their own, and (IMO) they shouldn't be treated like robots who are here to do our bidding without question.
 

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Yep. And after a couple of attempts to contact me ... if I continue to ignore, the phone starts to fry my ass.

Stings.
Exactly.
Recall dog.
Dog ignores recall? Zap dog.
Dog doesn't respond? Ramp up the dial.
Dog still doesn't respond? Ramp up the dial even more.
Dog legs it in the opposite direction? Run after it, zapping away at maximum level as if you're a TV addict running after your telly, looking slightly ridiculous.
Find dog waiting on porch (if you're lucky).
 

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You can mention a brand as long as we have no reason to think you are not directly involved in it and are expecting no financial gain.
Thank you for the explanation.

With that here goes:
My two preferred brands currently are E collar Technologies and Garmin Pro series (formerly Tritronics Pro 100 or 500). They stim differently. The E collar technologies is more of a rapid fire buzz. The Garmin is more like a single poke. The dog's basic temperament and response is the one you use.

Other brands have a tendency to be inconsistent and consistency of stim level is VERY important.

On my current dog I use an E collar Technologies Pro 900 double box. Yes. Two stim boxes on the same collar. By using two boxes you can use much less power and get a better response when the dog is in HIGH DRIVE. Most pet dogs never SEE high drive other than a squirrel or a deer. For SOME dogs you can train all day long with the best food rewards in the world and get a consistent and beautiful recall but when they see a squirrel or deer or Porcupine or Skunk, all bets are off. The e collar can be a life saver in those situations with an off leash dog. The other thing the e collar can give a pet dog is freedom on a hike to BE off leash as, PROPERLY TRAINED with an e colar the dog will recall reliably. If done right, you MIGHT even create and aversion to those creatures but in a dog with great prey drive and a genetically independent nature it is unlikely. IOW's the Hound will chase the rabbit/raccoon/deer etc. because that is what hounds were BRED to do and the intervening road with fast moving traffic does not even ENTER their mind.

Again, the e collar is NOT a teaching tool. It is NOT USED to teach a NEW BEHAVOR RESPONSE to a CUE. It is a reinforcement tool to be used AFTER the dog has been taught and has been taught in MANY locations and has the behavior learned thoroughly. The e collar is the "reminder" if a situation arises that has the dog blowing off the command.

Once a dog is trained the e collar is on but rarely used. I was told by an top of the line K9 trainer and sport dog trainer to think of it as a gun with one bullet in any given training session. You work the dog knowing you have an issue with one cue being blown off when the dog is in drive. So with the e collar in place you use it when the dog blows that one command in the series. That is it. You have ONE CHANCE in that session. Again, this is about dogs in drive and most pet dogs are NOT in DRIVE.

As Deacon Dogs notes, putting the e collar on himself, it is like the phone buzzing. Properly adjusted to match the level of drive the dog is in the dog should feel it and respond (ear twitch, head movement is what we see) but should NEVER yelp. The higher the drive the higher the stim to get the dog's attention.

People who are anti e collar don't know about dogs in HIGH DRIVE and the need for obedience when in high drive. Remember, the REWARD to a dog in DRIVE is DRIVE SATISFACTION. So, it is really the Premack principle. The dog must do what you want to obtain drive satisfaction. The e collar is used to remind the dog in HIGH DRIVE he/she must do as asked first and when that is accomplished he/she will IMMEDIATELY get drive satisfaction as the reward.

This means a dog in prey drive, the satisfaction is to catch the prey. The PREY can be a ball thrown. A dog that is hungry and loves to eat is in food drive and the satisfaction is food (and most dogs have a degree of food drive so we use it to train). A dog in hunt drive has his satisfaction satiated by hunting such as trailing and in the end combining hunt and prey, finding and sometimes catching what is being hunted. A dog in fight drive WANTS the fight and drive satisfaction is in actually fighting. A dog in Defense Drive is satisfied by scaring off that which it is defending itself from (trust me, no dog is defending YOU the dog is defending itself first and you just happen to be there). Pack drive is the desire to partner and some breeds are bred to have less of this (hounds that work independently) and others have a greater degree of this (retrievers come to mind). Pack drive makes a dog want to be with you and work with you. All these drives work at different levels and in different combinations with some greater than others depending on the dog, the genetics, the situation and the behavior required.
 

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Exactly.
Recall dog.
Dog ignores recall? Zap dog.
Dog doesn't respond? Ramp up the dial.
Dog still doesn't respond? Ramp up the dial even more.
Dog legs it in the opposite direction? Run after it, zapping away at maximum level as if you're a TV addict running after your telly, looking slightly ridiculous.
Find dog waiting on porch (if you're lucky).
THAT is NOT how to train a recall with an e collar. EVER. YOU are a BAD TRAINER if that is what you would do or how you think it is done.

YOU would not be a candidate for an E collar on a dog.
 

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THAT is NOT how to train a recall with an e collar. EVER. YOU are a BAD TRAINER if that is what you would do or how you think it is done. YOU would not be a candidate for an E collar on a dog.
I think I detected a note of sarcasm in LMH1012's post. Sometimes we forget that it's hard to convey sarcasm or irony in a forum post.
 

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If you are anti-ecollar and think a e-collar is abusive, or gives zaps (such a weird word..) then you are the uneducated one and I don't want to hear it.

If you haven't put a e-collar of a well known and trusted brand on your wrist, or neck, then I don't want to hear from you that it hurts.

Sorry, but all of you anti-ecollar people are missing out, and so is your dog. I don't know a single other tool that can save your dogs life in a click of a button. Really, I don't? I cannot imagine the fear i'd have if I didn't have the back up of an e-collar to recall my dog. Its SO unsafe to have a dog offleash without one, there is NOTHING and i mean NOTHING you can do to get your off leash dog back without one. Even the most well trained dog has its off days, therefore a e-collar isn't a form of "not knowing how to train a dog" or "dog not trained well enough, lol e-collar trainers dogs don't know nothin". I promise you my dog is very well behaved, but like everybody else, DOGS HAVE OFF DAYS, and a e-collar might as well save your dogs life on one of those off days.
 

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This thread is becoming close to useless and has passed the point of discussion. Time to shut it down before someone gets a time-out.
 
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