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Hi folks, I have a question that I can't seem to wrap my head around. I am getting ready to train a 9month old Bernese. This is not a question of training, it's more of a , I don't know, off the wall question.
I know you condition the dog pretty much with the come command, AFTER, the dog knows it. I understand that fully. But if after the end of the training, the dog knows perfectly one tap means turn,look at me, and get your butt back here, and then how do they separate a tap saying to sit when she stubbornly takes forever to get around to your command. Yet the one tap is also good for her to come back in a instance when you use it as a backup for your come command that is out of hearing distancing. Does all that make sense.?
 

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What doesn't make sense is using an electric shock to train your dog to do anything. If your dog is "stubbornly" taking 'forever' to respond to you & your cues (or commands, if you prefer) I'd stop with the 'tap' and start to figure out a better way to communicate & improve my relationship with the dog.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The dog knows how to sit, but doesn't want to.The main question is regarding the dog knowing the difference of the recall with a tap, and enforcing a KNOWN command with the same tap. That is what is confusing to me.
 

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Zapping a 9 month old pup to make it sit????
Sorry but any fool can train a sit without the use of barbaric training aids like an e collar.
You need to find a decent positive trainer to help you get rid of that awful thing and learn some 21st century techniques.
 

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The dog knows how to sit, but doesn't want to.The main question is regarding the dog knowing the difference of the recall with a tap, and enforcing a KNOWN command with the same tap. That is what is confusing to me.
If your dog isn’t sitting, she either does NOT know the command as well as you think she does, you haven’t made it rewarding enough, or you’ve failed to properly fade out the reward. The answer will never be to try to shock the poor dog into obedience
 

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Does all that make sense.?
Unfortunately, no it doesn't. But I'll take a shot at offering my nickel's worth of advice anyway.

The dog knows how to sit, but doesn't want to.
Your dog is still a puppy. She doesn't know sit. If she truly did know, she would comply.

Simply put ... for the most part, dogs are inherently hardwired to please us. All it takes for you to achieve compliance is to have understanding and compassion, utilize proper motivation, and possess a modicum of mechanical / training skills. This is the basic recipe for success. Repetition and consistency are important too, but punishment of any type is NEVER required. Nor recommended by me.

Technically speaking now, your dog has actually learned that the "sit" cue has become what's known as a conditioned punisher. She is confused and likely scared, because when she hears the word "sit" it merely predicts that a shock is imminent and forthcoming. The intended connection between hearing the cue and completing the sit behaviour is not being made. The reluctance or confusion one might see is often misinterpreted as the dog being 'stubborn' when in fact she is not ... she Just. Doesn't. Know. ... and she is afraid to make any type of a move for fear of it being the one that brings pain or discomfort.

The main question is regarding the dog knowing the difference of the recall with a tap, and enforcing a KNOWN command with the same tap. That is what is confusing to me
If you think you're confused, just imagine how your dog feels.


I suggest you give up on the entire notion of using punishment to train your pup. Adopt a strictly 'positive-reinforcement-only' training mentality. There are plenty of resources readily available at your fingertips these days to help and guide you. And then, go right back to square one and start over again.
 

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Shock collar training.

1). Put collar around your neck - yours - not the dog's.
2). Hand someone else the remote.
3). Ask that person to "train" you using a 2nd language - one you don't understand.

What do you mean, no? It's good enough for the dog, isn't it? ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Whoa. Hang on a second. I was just asking a question about e-collar training. I don't even own one. I was merely asking . I just could not comphend the one tap that others talk about. I would NEVER, teach my dog a command using as you say, a foreign language, such as a stim. I just didn't know if , after she KNOWS the word sit, does it every time, except when she's excited, how do I correct that. I may have come off as one of these naive people that think a shock collar is for training the command, it is not, therefore I apologize.
 

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Whoa. Hang on a second. I was just asking a question about e-collar training. I don't even own one. I was merely asking . I just could not comphend the one tap that others talk about. I would NEVER, teach my dog a command using as you say, a foreign language, such as a stim. I just didn't know if , after she KNOWS the word sit, does it every time, except when she's excited, how do I correct that. I may have come off as one of these naive people that think a shock collar is for training the command, it is not, therefore I apologize.
I'm very glad to hear that you don't own & are not using a shock collar on your pup.

To address your question, if she is too excited to 'sit' then you need to correct the environment, not the puppy. What is she excited about? What is she doing that you would prefer she be sitting? Too many variables to give a specific answer, but generally speaking this means that she has been introduced to a distraction that is too high for her current level of training. You might need to create more distance from the distraction, if possible, depending on what it is, where you are, etc... Practice that 'sit' under lower levels of distraction & then very gradually increase until she is all the way at your goal of being able to sit under these exciting circumstances.
 

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Whoa. Hang on a second. I was just asking a question about e-collar training. I don't even own one. I was merely asking . I just could not comphend the one tap that others talk about. I would NEVER, teach my dog a command using as you say, a foreign language, such as a stim. I just didn't know if , after she KNOWS the word sit, does it every time, except when she's excited, how do I correct that. I may have come off as one of these naive people that think a shock collar is for training the command, it is not, therefore I apologize.
The foreign language to a dog -, is English or the owner's primary language. Not the e-collar. It would be like your French, Spanish or German teacher zapping you when you got your Q'uelles mixed up with your je's. Wilkommen mixed up with Bonjour.

This is the second time I've merely suggested that the owner wears the e-collar themselves and gives a second person the remote, and the second time the reply is in the defensive. No one ever got defensive when it was merely suggested they try positive reinforcement on themselves. To me, that speaks volumes.

I'm glad you're not going to do it.
 

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Hi folks, I have a question that I can't seem to wrap my head around. I am getting ready to train a 9month old Bernese. This is not a question of training, it's more of a , I don't know, off the wall question.
I know you condition the dog pretty much with the come command, AFTER, the dog knows it. I understand that fully. But if after the end of the training, the dog knows perfectly one tap means turn,look at me, and get your butt back here, and then how do they separate a tap saying to sit when she stubbornly takes forever to get around to your command. Yet the one tap is also good for her to come back in a instance when you use it as a backup for your come command that is out of hearing distancing. Does all that make sense.?
I did not read a single response as most here are so anti-e collar they cannot think of how to work with one. I use one to train to a fairly high level.

First, before using any punishment for any disobedience the handler must teach the dog HOW to respond to a command cue and the must give the dog reason to WANT to respond to the command cue and then must repeat both HOW to and WANT to in many different locations. Positive reinforcement and food work good to TEACH a command cue and balls/toys serve to build speed and drive and WANT to once the dog learns HOW to. Dogs do not generalize behavior well so whatever cue you are teaching needs to be retaught in many locations so the dog can generalize it. IOW's Sit is the house is great. Take the dog to the yard, and the dog does not sit. Re-teach it in the yard. Go out front on the sidewalk. Reteach it there. Now go to the park. Reteach it there.. It takes about 20 different locations to teach a dog to generalize a command. Once you have that you add distractions and you may have to reteach under distraction. In TEACHING HOW TO and WANT TO there is NO PUNISHMENT AT ALL.

Using the e collar for recall is what most pet dog owners use an e collar for. After training this correctly in an enclosed area so the dog understands NEVER to ignore a recall command, the e collar allows dogs to have hikes with their owners off leash. Most pet dog owners that is as far as it goes. And, for most pet dog owners that is as far as it should EVER go. Just remember that you may need to start this in the house, in the enclosed and fenced yard and then in another enclosed area so the dog "gets it." When the dog gets to you make being with your SAFE and FUN and have lots of REALLY GOOD FOOD like Roast Beef. IOW's being next to you is the best place to be ever.

I use the e collar in other training but not a whole lot because we already have "want to." I NEVER use an e collar for sit. It can make the dog aversive to sitting. In fact, in what I do I have to walk down the field with the dog focused on me, head up looking at me and walking next to me and then I say "sit" and I do not hesitate or stop and the dog sits (called the sit out of motion and it looks like this after training it by stopping). I have seen the use of the e collar trying to get a faster sit. The result is a dog that either just keeps walking or a dog that stands and you can lose the sit out of motion altogether. There is insufficient DRIVE to overcome the negative (before e collars there was often a collar jerk to get the sit faster). All this makes the sit slower. This is NOT a place for an e collar stim. Just walk a little slower and then when the dog sits walk back to the dog and pay it with a ball either straight up over the dog's head or tossed behind the dog. NO E COLLAR as it is inappropriate for the sit. In fact, for pet dogs other than recall I would not use an e collar for basic commands such as down, off, go to bed, leave it and so forth.

I WOULD use an e collar on a pet dog to create aversions to doing some behaviors. Killing snakes in country with poisonous snakes? E collar is appropriate.. Chasing livestock? If the dog will not call off (recall) E collar is appropriate. Chasing people on Bikes or children? If the dog won't call off immediately, E collar is appropriate. In the snake situation you are creating fear of snakes. In the other two situations you are correcting for not recalling. It is unlikely you can create an aversion to livestock/children/bikes that will work without you being there so, instead, you are reinforcing the recall. And even in this you must be careful because an e collar can create a situation where the dog is so afraid of kids or bikes that the dog will attack out of fear (this is why you need to understand dogs and most pet dog owners do not.. so get help from someone who REALLY knows what they are doing.. and in my experience there are about 10 people in the entire US that know what they are doing so good luck with that).

I HAVE used an e collar on a dog that is in HIGH drive working in bite/protection work. I HAVE used it for various issues in secondary obedience of for not "outing" (letting go) as appropriate (also in Protection work). Pet dog owners are not doing this sort of work and pet dogs are not in high drive like the dogs that do this work. I have used an e collar for inattentiveness when I have asked for competition level heeling but, again, this is not a useful exercise for most pet dog owners.

I will put it this way. If you are using an e collar to keep your dog out of the garbage or from jumping on the counter or jumping on people then you are doing it wrong.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
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Did.
I did not read a single response as most here are so anti-e collar they cannot think of how to work with one. I use one to train to a fairly high level.

First, before using any punishment for any disobedience the handler must teach the dog HOW to respond to a command cue and the must give the dog reason to WANT to respond to the command cue and then must repeat both HOW to and WANT to in many different locations. Positive reinforcement and food work good to TEACH a command cue and balls/toys serve to build speed and drive and WANT to once the dog learns HOW to. Dogs do not generalize behavior well so whatever cue you are teaching needs to be retaught in many locations so the dog can generalize it. IOW's Sit is the house is great. Take the dog to the yard, and the dog does not sit. Re-teach it in the yard. Go out front on the sidewalk. Reteach it there. Now go to the park. Reteach it there.. It takes about 20 different locations to teach a dog to generalize a command. Once you have that you add distractions and you may have to reteach under distraction. In TEACHING HOW TO and WANT TO there is NO PUNISHMENT AT ALL.

Using the e collar for recall is what most pet dog owners use an e collar for. After training this correctly in an enclosed area so the dog understands NEVER to ignore a recall command, the e collar allows dogs to have hikes with their owners off leash. Most pet dog owners that is as far as it goes. And, for most pet dog owners that is as far as it should EVER go. Just remember that you may need to start this in the house, in the enclosed and fenced yard and then in another enclosed area so the dog "gets it." When the dog gets to you make being with your SAFE and FUN and have lots of REALLY GOOD FOOD like Roast Beef. IOW's being next to you is the best place to be ever.

I use the e collar in other training but not a whole lot because we already have "want to." I NEVER use an e collar for sit. It can make the dog aversive to sitting. In fact, in what I do I have to walk down the field with the dog focused on me, head up looking at me and walking next to me and then I say "sit" and I do not hesitate or stop and the dog sits (called the sit out of motion and it looks like this after training it by stopping). I have seen the use of the e collar trying to get a faster sit. The result is a dog that either just keeps walking or a dog that stands and you can lose the sit out of motion altogether. There is insufficient DRIVE to overcome the negative (before e collars there was often a collar jerk to get the sit faster). All this makes the sit slower. This is NOT a place for an e collar stim. Just walk a little slower and then when the dog sits walk back to the dog and pay it with a ball either straight up over the dog's head or tossed behind the dog. NO E COLLAR as it is inappropriate for the sit. In fact, for pet dogs other than recall I would not use an e collar for basic commands such as down, off, go to bed, leave it and so forth.

I WOULD use an e collar on a pet dog to create aversions to doing some behaviors. Killing snakes in country with poisonous snakes? E collar is appropriate.. Chasing livestock? If the dog will not call off (recall) E collar is appropriate. Chasing people on Bikes or children? If the dog won't call off immediately, E collar is appropriate. In the snake situation you are creating fear of snakes. In the other two situations you are correcting for not recalling. It is unlikely you can create an aversion to livestock/children/bikes that will work without you being there so, instead, you are reinforcing the recall. And even in this you must be careful because an e collar can create a situation where the dog is so afraid of kids or bikes that the dog will attack out of fear (this is why you need to understand dogs and most pet dog owners do not.. so get help from someone who REALLY knows what they are doing.. and in my experience there are about 10 people in the entire US that know what they are doing so good luck with that).

I HAVE used an e collar on a dog that is in HIGH drive working in bite/protection work. I HAVE used it for various issues in secondary obedience of for not "outing" (letting go) as appropriate (also in Protection work). Pet dog owners are not doing this sort of work and pet dogs are not in high drive like the dogs that do this work. I have used an e collar for inattentiveness when I have asked for competition level heeling but, again, this is not a useful exercise for most pet dog owners.

I will put it this way. If you are using an e collar to keep your dog out of the garbage or from jumping on the counter or jumping on people then you are doing it wrong.
I so thank you for not ripping my head off, but just explaining things for me to understand. I did not realize that when taught sit in the house and in the yard that it would still need to be shown in other locations as well, that makes perfect sense. I am following Larry Krohn's videos and I guess maybe I didn't understand that the e-collar could be used to enforce, not taught, but to enforce a known command by the use of a tap. Is this not so?
 

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Did.

I so thank you for not ripping my head off, but just explaining things for me to understand. I did not realize that when taught sit in the house and in the yard that it would still need to be shown in other locations as well, that makes perfect sense. I am following Larry Krohn's videos and I guess maybe I didn't understand that the e-collar could be used to enforce, not taught, but to enforce a known command by the use of a tap. Is this not so?
Correct. It is only used to enforce a known command and it should be set high enough to be "enough" but never so high as to be "too much."

In a dog that has been trained well using R+ and clarity with good timing, the e collar stim is used RARELY. If you have to use it a LOT you need to train more.

I just glanced at the videos you are watching. NOTE that the first several that come up are about giving the dog off leash freedom. That is enough for most people. You want to do more? Find a top IGP/IPO/Schutzhund obedience trainer to help you in person.

[Quote deleted because it included a spam link. Please don't quote spam.]

The following discussion is well beyond what most pet dog owners need to know, but here it is.

Collar stims vary between collars. For a dog that is very actively high drive (some nerve and maybe even a dog that leaks occasionally) you want a collar that delivers something like a single tap. For a confident dog that is less active (but still has plenty of drive) a collar that delivers something akin to a buzz is more effective.

In all of this, if delivered correctly on a dog that is well trained, a tap from an e collar can INCREASE drive and response and eagerness. Of course this is helped by always rewarding with 3X the energy of the the correction the instant the dog IS correct.

The other thing I often see in highly trained dogs is the handler using the e collar as a crutch.. such that when removed the desired behavior drops.

For MOST Pet Dog owners the e collar is used to train an instantaneous recall reliability such that the dog can be taken on off leash hikes. And for MOST Pet Dog owners that is the entirety of what they need to know and the ONLY time that an e collar should be used. For any dog that is NEVER off leash, I would not use an e collar for anything.
 

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^ What E-collars do you use?

I personally do like the Mini educator, the dogtra, and I've even used the sport dog brand all with good results from the collar.
 

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I do not like the second brand mentioned. The stims can be all over the map. PM me for my opinion since I do not think promoting a brand is allowed????
 

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PM me for my opinion since I do not think promoting a brand is allowed????
You can mention a brand as long as we have no reason to think you are not directly involved in it and are expecting no financial gain.
 
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Shock collar training.

1). Put collar around your neck - yours - not the dog's.
2). Hand someone else the remote.
3). Ask that person to "train" you using a 2nd language - one you don't understand.

What do you mean, no? It's good enough for the dog, isn't it? ;)
E COLLAR training

1. Ok, I have. It doesn't hurt. It feels like my phone vibrating in my back pocket.
2. Meh
3. I am learning a second langauge! Do you know that dogs are trained to understand the E-collar and E-collars aren't meant to be put on and then poked all willy nilly?
 

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E COLLAR training

1. Ok, I have. It doesn't hurt. It feels like my phone vibrating in my back pocket.
2. Meh
3. I am learning a second langauge! Do you know that dogs are trained to understand the E-collar and E-collars aren't meant to be put on and then poked all willy nilly?
So you wouldn't hand someone else the remote?

Would you be happy being zapped when you got a word in the second language wrong?

I don't care whether or not dogs are trained to understand the e-collar. They have no place in modern dog training.
 
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