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Discussion Starter #1
Dominant dogs - they are not really out there but there seems to be a lot of equipment made for them. Most of it works by inflicting some degree of discomfort on the dog. Millan's Illusion collar works by cutting off air supply to the dog, making the punishment seem effortless. And thereby more acceptable to the consumer. Of course, Millan would never be honest with his consumers and he will wax poetically about energy and visualizing - all the while the dog is gasping for air.

While I don't like much (most?) of what Ed Frawley of Leerburg pushes, at least he is an honest person. He doesn't mince words, he is clear this is punishment and makes no excuses as to the real purpose and reason the collar works. He writes in big, bold, blue letters

This collar is not intended to give a painful correction. It's intended to take the air away from the dog.

While I despise the methods, at least I respect his honesty. Which is a lot more than I can say for Millan or the Canadian clown Pattison

Of course anyone who is not blinded by the Whisperer media machine and has some knowledge of anatomy already knows this. Just try convincing his fans.
 

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I there a point in starting this thread aside from possibly raising the hackles of many?

There's no question here, and as far as I can see, no inclination towards discussing anything. It's just a thread created as a statement.

Maybe I'm missing something and these collars were mentioned in another thread?
 

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Whether one agrees with such implements, or not, they are not properly used to correct general misbehavior. A so-called "dominant dog collar" (a misnomer IMO) has its uses, but it's not the best tool for making Fluffy get with the "give paw" program.
 

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http://www.etologi.no/2008/04/kvelning-nesten-besvimelser-og.html

Inspired the thread. Which the author actually concludes that Frawley's method is marginally less bad.

The question is : Does the believe that dominance is the root of misbehavior cause dog handlers to respond aggressively?
I have not seen Milan tell people to have their dog bite a hidden sleeve and hang their dog 4 feet in the air until it passes out from lack of oxygen as in the link you posted.

I fail to see any logical connections in your statement between them.

A collar is a tool, a choke collar is a common one that has been around far longer then Milan or Leerburg. Even the rescue I got my dog from used them, she had one on when I got her, but not for long.

It is a tool, whether it is used well or poorly is up to the user. A hammer can drive nails and build something beautiful, or it can crush a skull or flatten a thumb. It's not to the hardware store how the hammer is to be used.
 

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This being the question... "The question is : Does the believe that dominance is the root of misbehavior cause dog handlers to respond aggressively?"

The belief is not that dominance causes the misbehavior but it should be conceded that the misbehavior is developed from lack of proper instruction and training of both dog and handler. A dog is not expressing dominant behavior just because it is being willful because of ignorence. Most ignorent handlers/owners (meaning follow one train of training thought and don't explore other options out there) seem to go with whatever the fad training method at the moment is... and for most it's *gasp* Caesar (at the moment) who has shown us time and time again that he favors alpha methods of training rather than a more harmonious team effort and reward based training program. Same with Pattison, and Frawley. More people should be switching off Discovery and Caesar to Animal Planet and Victoria Stilwell. When you have a strong willed dog, training thru brute force will get you no where but more confrontation. Training thru positive raward based training changes the dynamic and removes all confrontational overtones in any trainig regimin.

Any person who takes 5 minuts to educate themselves on canine behavior will realise that aggressive behavior begets aggressive behavior whether it's training, discipline, etc. makes no difference You get out of your relationship with your dog what you put into it. Unfortunately most human response to assertive behavior is to reply in kind and at an even greater level of aggressiveness. So overall I don't think it's the belief that "my dog is acting dominant therefore I must act MORE dominant in order to regain control", I just think that people really don't have a clue how to cope and "work smarter not harder" whenit comes to their dog.
 

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"Dominance" can be, and often is, used interchangeably with "aggression" (sometimes desirable), "drive", "assertiveness", and "hardness". It is an imprecise term, but it serves no useful purpose to select one definition to knock down.

...aggressive behavior begets aggressive behavior....
To which, Gunnery Sergeant Martinez would say: "...then you're doing it wrong."
 

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Most ignorent handlers/owners (meaning follow one train of training thought and don't explore other options out there) seem to go with whatever the fad training method at the moment is... and for most it's *gasp* Caesar (at the moment) who has shown us time and time again that he favors alpha methods of training rather than a more harmonious team effort and reward based training program.
That's not what I have seen on his show at all. Seems to me he prefers positive methods, but will use other methods if he thinks they will work well.

Aggressive does not always beget aggressive behavior either, aggressive behavior can also beget a fearful dog that pees whenever you approach and won't even get up off the floor or anything in between.
 

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"Dominance" can be, and often is, used interchangeably with "aggression" (sometimes desirable), "drive", "assertiveness", and "hardness". It is an imprecise term, but it serves no useful purpose to select one definition to knock down.
Yes.

Most would call my dog Hope dominant, when she's anything but. She does have drive, and she does get overwhelmed with distractions and not hear me, but it is in no way dominance, nor is it even assertiveness or hardness. It's simply lack of self control combined with a high drive and she would simply ignore any physical corrections.

I could hit her, choke her etc. She would not hold it against me but it would do no good either, it would be totally useless in training.

My other dog is just ignorant. Any physical correction to her at all is very very bad, one strike and she would never ever be the same with me, the relationship would be badly damaged.
 

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That's not what I have seen on his show at all. Seems to me he prefers positive methods, but will use other methods if he thinks they will work well.

Aggressive does not always beget aggressive behavior either, aggressive behavior can also beget a fearful dog that pees whenever you approach and won't even get up off the floor or anything in between.
I have seen 4 seasons of Cesar Milan and I can barely recall any situation where he used Positive Reinforcement methods.

Most of them were using the choke collar. Whether you agree with the methods or not, choke collars are not "positive" methods. Manhandling dogs is not positive either.

A common argument is that they are red zone dogs. But most of these "red zone" dogs have never had positive methods used on them. So that's a fallacy too.

Not going to shove anything down anyone's throat about Milan, people can believe whatever they want about him. But his methods are anything but positive.
 

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A common argument is that they are red zone dogs. But most of these "red zone" dogs have never had positive methods used on them. So that's a fallacy too.
From what I have seen the majority of the dogs on the show are not labeled red zone dogs either.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
My second interest was not so much on what he's doing, but how he's selling it. While we can at least recognize Frawley's honesty, in the case of the TV trainers we get a lot of woo-woo explanations of what they are doing. If they were honest like Frawley, would they have so many followers?
 

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My second interest was not so much on what he's doing, but how he's selling it. While we can at least recognize Frawley's honesty, in the case of the TV trainers we get a lot of woo-woo explanations of what they are doing. If they were honest like Frawley, would they have so many followers?
I have yet to see anyone on TV tell you to bait your dog with a bite sleeve, and as it bites to hang your dog by it's neck over a branch with a choke chain until it passes out and is unconscious.

Please point me to that Dog Whisperer episode.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I have yet to see anyone on TV tell you to bait your dog with a bite sleeve, and as it bites to hang your dog by it's neck over a branch with a choke chain until it passes out and is unconscious.

Please point me to that Dog Whisperer episode.
Perhaps your emotional reaction is getting in the way of understanding what I've written.
 

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Perhaps your emotional reaction is getting in the way of understanding what I've written.
Not at all, your suggesting they do the same thing, but they simply sell it differently.

That if the technique was sold honestly someone like Millan would have less sales.

But there is vast difference between giving your dog a leash correction and hanging it from a tree 4ft off the ground with a choke chain until it loses consciousness.

How you sell it has nothing to do with it. They are selling two very different things. Not the same thing as you seem to be suggesting.

I have no emotional reaction at all, I don't use choke chains, prong collars or anything other than a flat collar if a collar at all. Just making an honest observation as I see it. Perhaps you are simply projecting your emotions on the issue.
 
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