Puppy Forum and Dog Forums banner

1 - 20 of 191 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I hav a 10 month old pit, total cupcake..except: she has been avoiding getting into the car this week, she lays down and chills, when I walk overor speak stearnly she rlls over and submits and I have to drag or carry her.today, granted she needs a run, she bgan dancing and spining, barking and mouthing my hand when I approached her.I have been showing her recently to walk out of the house after me as well as leash training, is she fighting to be pack leader?and if so how do I correct this without being abusive lol I truely love this dog and want to train her properly.thanks in advance.alan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,765 Posts
Those behaviors are appeasement behaviors. . .she's saying "see how cute I am? Please don't hurt me!". So something is scaring her. Did anything scary happen in the car? Do you use harsh methods? But suffice to say, no, she's not trying to be "dominant". Your dog does not want to take over the world, LOL.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I've tried both methods to be honest but I try to be easy on her if I don't understand the behavior, I did have to swirv to avoid an accident and she hit the door, (not too hard) that's all I can think of. And the way she was barking and mouthing sure seemed to be a callenge of sorts I just get thrown off because she was submissive before hand. Combind with the way she started blowing me off when potty time is over and its time to go in, it seems she is under the impression se is alpha and is trying o maintain that position.I dunno :-\
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
232 Posts
No your dog is not trying to take over the world! Dominance and the pack theory are complete bunk. As the poster above said those are appeasement behaviours, she is trying to tell you she is afraid. it would take only a few minutes for a good clicker trainer to get her in the car on her own steam, and only a few sessions (5 or 10 minutes each session) for her to like getting in the car. She is a "soft" dog and needs gentle handling, from the little info you've given.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,262 Posts
From what you've described, it sounds as though the car incident (swerving, her hitting the door) could have resulted in a bit of fear / discomfort. After one minor accident that occurred years ago, I'm still uneasy about four-way stops. Earlier this week my dog started refusing to walk into the yard - I have no idea why. I was patient with her: walked a few steps into the yard, called her name, and lured her with treats (I could have used a toy, but bits of dehydrated lamb lung fit in my pocket better than a squeaky ball or stuffed raccoon). After a few times, she went back to her normal behavior.

Her dancing, barking, and mouthing sound like her wanting to play. If she needs a run, that's more indication that she has some excess energy and needs an appropriate way (e.g., walks, play, training) to expend it. She's not "blowing you off" when she doesn't want to go in after potty time - she wants to explore the wonderful world around her!

As Deaf Dogs said, dominance theory is not supported by scientific evidence. Take a look at the resources listed in the recommended reading sticky and here are some additional resources: Dominance Myths and Dog Training Realities, The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory, and Dominance and Dog Training. Also, take a look at the materials on Ian Dunbar's site, Dog Star Daily, especially the free downloads.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
I agree with the 4 responses above.
There certainly is something that's making her stressed about the car, maybe it's the swerve, or maybe you'ill never find out what exactly, but it doesn't matter.
Dominance between 2 different species does not exist.
Don't talk to her "sternly" around the car, and dont act as if she was trying to "dominate" you, this will only stress her more, and she might even shut down.

What I would do is stop taking her on car rides.
Feed her meals around/near/beside the car for a couple days.
Then feed her meals inside the car, without turning the motor on.
After a couple days, if she's doing ok, feed her meals in the car and turn the motor on and off while she's still eating.
Then feed her in the car and drive around the block, etc...
This must be done progressively and always under threshhold; for example, if she will not eat, or "freezes", she's too close to the car, feed her further away.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,186 Posts
This is what I hate about dominance theory. It turns a puppy's innocent invitation to play into something to worry about.

OP, read the recommended articles and then read our stickies. You're about to enter an era of doing things with your dog instead of to your dog.

Oh, and get a seatbelt harness. Dogs aren't safe just loose in the car.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,977 Posts
I hav a 10 month old pit, total cupcake..except: she has been avoiding getting into the car this week, she lays down and chills, when I walk overor speak stearnly she rlls over and submits and I have to drag or carry her.
I find it interesting you describe her as submitting, but then are worried about her being dominant. :) Also that she's a total cupcake. That's usually not a 'I'm gonna own you' personality :D

today, granted she needs a run, she bgan dancing and spining, barking and mouthing my hand when I approached her.I have been showing her recently to walk out of the house after me as well as leash training, is she fighting to be pack leader?
Sometimes, play is just play.

Keep working with her on the leash walking and being patient will help her learn control and what you expect in situations. From this, it sounds like you're fine. Good luck with your puppy. :)

And the way she was barking and mouthing sure seemed to be a callenge of sorts I just get thrown off because she was submissive before hand. Combind with the way she started blowing me off when potty time is over and its time to go in, it seems she is under the impression se is alpha and is trying o maintain that position.I dunno :-\
Well, one thing standard explanations of dominance/submission miss is that it's a fluid thing. So different situations can call for different members of the group to "be dominant". That said, it sounds like play and energy built up. Dogs do bark and mouth during play (play is partly practicing survival/adult behaviors in non-critical, safe enviornments, and barking and biting are definitely some often used behaviors in adult dogs if only to "talk" and eat :) )

How does she blow you off? Is she just really interested in continuing to sniff? Distracted by everything? Does she stand there watching you? What happens if you move towards her? Could be wanting to start a game? (Does she play bow, etc). Is she standing still, but looking alternately at you and something else? (indication that she might want to go that way and is looking to you to see if you and her can go)

Has she learned recall pretty well? If so, you can build a behavior chain - go potty, then recall. The reward can then be taking her to go sniff or investigate whatever.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Thanks you all for your advice, I feel like a totall a hole now lol I'm going to go give stella a big hug and a treat! And in respose to thegoing back in, she will either lay there and not listen or sniff arround or start walking further in the back yard.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
232 Posts
Thanks you all for your advice, I feel like a totall a hole now lol I'm going to go give stella a big hug and a treat! And in respose to thegoing back in, she will either lay there and not listen or sniff arround or start walking further in the back yard.
This is why Cesar should not be on TV. to many people take his methods and apply them in the wrong way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
It's def. not a dominance issue, that is for sure. I'm also not convinced it's necessarily fear either. I think she is just not wanting to do these things, such as get in the car, or go inside. It seems like she is simply protesting. Bella does this when she doesn't want to walk home from the dog park or it's hot out and she just doesn't want to walk. She will try to veer off to the side of the road and lay down in protest. She will just literally lay there lol. I don't know what your location is but it's pretty hot out now and cars get extremely hot. That could be a reason why she doesn't want to get in....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,406 Posts
Forget about "dominant" and "submissive. What are the behaviors you WANT? work to get them and a good social relationship is likely to follow.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
306 Posts
Dominant behaviour in dogs may well be bunkum but it seems to hold true for human beings in this thread towards the OP.:wave:

Why is it that the word "dominant" presses buttons in people anyway?
I'm prepared to respect a different point of view on dog training. there is more than one way you know.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
211 Posts
Why is it that the word "dominant" presses buttons in people anyway?
Because this training method usually results in creates more problems than it solves. It results in a shut down, unhappy, dog. It can create a dog that will explode in a vicious attack unexpectedly. It can become abusive in the hands of some people. A lot of this is because it starts from an incorrect premise, that the dog is trying to take over.

When I was at the beach over the weekend I saw several people who were using CM/dominance style training. They were 'tchting', belly kicking and so forth just like their celebrity mentor. Their dogs were highly reactive toward other dogs and were obviously highly stressed. They were giving off calming signals and looked quite unhappy. In one case, the owner began slapping/spanking the dog when he kept reacting poorly.

In contrast, there were some happy, engaged, dogs around who didn't react poorly to other dogs and people. I don't know, of course, what kind of training method they used but it clearly didn't involve overbearing dominance.

EDIT: Here's another case in point from another thread here: http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/116393-traveler-need-some-advice.html

I have tried flipping her on her back to show dominance and biting her ear... talking to her in a disappointed tone, and telling her that what she is doing is wrong... but still she continues to nip... the only thing that has changed... is now... she tries to be sneakier about it... she generally won't nip unless I am not looking...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
Dominant behaviour in dogs may well be bunkum but it seems to hold true for human beings in this thread towards the OP.:wave:

Why is it that the word "dominant" presses buttons in people anyway?
I'm prepared to respect a different point of view on dog training. there is more than one way you know.
Dominant behaviour in dogs isn't bunk. It's just that it's not applicable in dog training for the most part and people often try to apply it without understanding it. Most often lack of basic leadership in the owner is attributed to dominant behaviour in dog. A lot of other issues are wrongly attributed to dominance like disobedience, hyperactivity, aggression, leash reactivity etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,977 Posts
Dominant behaviour in dogs may well be bunkum but it seems to hold true for human beings in this thread towards the OP.:wave:

Why is it that the word "dominant" presses buttons in people anyway?
I'm prepared to respect a different point of view on dog training. there is more than one way you know.
It's unnecessary.

Dominance = control of resources and access. I already have that. I already can control if he goes out or not, if he eats or not, if he gets the treat or not. I'm already dominant. He has to work through me to get what he wants. He can growl and nip and bark 24 hrs a day, I still have access and resource control.

So why would I need to flip him on his back in a non-play way to "show I"m dominant"? Why would I need to view everything he does as "is he dominant"? Why would I need to apply social pressure? Why would I need to consider being SCARED as being dominant? That doesn't even make logical sense. Fear isn't trying to control, it's trying to protect.

The fact only certain behaviors get him what he wants shows my dominance. I'm controlling access and resources.

Since it's a given (any human with a dog has control of these things unless the human just leaves them laying around, and even then, you still can have control if you teach behaviors that have the dog give up the item - which is dominance - without having to use "dominance training"), forget about it and move on to the actual training of the desired behavior, breaking down where the issues of communication and learned behavior are and devise solutions for teaching these behaviors. Saying "I'm boss" to a dog that doesn't even know what you're asking for is not productive.

Dominance also doesn't consider the dog's communications, like calming signals, and other body language communications. Dominance training seems to reduce a dog to "acting dominant" and "acting submissive" while dogs are capable of far more emotional ranges and communication behaviors than that.

Why throw that away? Use it. Read it. Learn it. Exploit it.

That's my issue with "dominance training".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,406 Posts
Dominant behaviour in dogs may well be bunkum but it seems to hold true for human beings in this thread towards the OP.:wave:

Why is it that the word "dominant" presses buttons in people anyway?
I'm prepared to respect a different point of view on dog training. there is more than one way you know.
Hum. But really nobody on this thread has been rude - simply given an opinion. Thing is, dominance isn't an issue for me in dog training. Behavior is. What I want from a dog is almost opposite what another dog would want. So it is silly to use that as a model (my opinion, and no attempt on my part to dominate you!)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
869 Posts
Dominant behaviour in dogs isn't bunk. It's just that it's not applicable in dog training for the most part and people often try to apply it without understanding it. Most often lack of basic leadership in the owner is attributed to dominant behaviour in dog.

What is basic leadership and what is dominant behavior?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
306 Posts
Hum. But really nobody on this thread has been rude - simply given an opinion. Thing is, dominance isn't an issue for me in do training. Behavior is. What I want from a dog is almost opposite what another dog would want. So it is silly to use that as a model (my opinion, and no attempt on my part to dominate you!)
Not overtly rude I admit but a more insidious know it all arrogant tone, I've seen on more than one dog forum.
And "the opinion" comes across more as "self-righteous fact". As if the people who adhere to old school training methods are imbecilic dinosaurs.:laugh:
 
1 - 20 of 191 Posts
Top