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Discussion Starter #1
Hello again,
I found a very interesting post in another forum. Is this what dogmanship is about?

Yeah I defend the Dogmen of today as well as the Dogmen of yesterday.. I defend them because they do a service to the breed that so many are not willing to do. They defend them because they sacrifice their freedom for this breed... some people might find it foolish and Lord knows I'm not willing to do it, but I believe that it needs to be done and I am thankful for those that do it be it here in the States where it is illegal or around the world where it is accepted.

you claim its a load of crap that they only love the game dog... I say thats a load of crap! Dogmen who raise a dog from a pup... to a young prospect... to a match dog... then have the dog turn out to be a cur... just to have to put it down... it is love! They spend years on each dog watching it mature... years of time and money to see if their dog has what it takes to carry their banner of the American Pit Bull Terrier into the future. And then say the dog doesn't represent what the breed is INTENDED to be.... out of love for the breed they remove that dog from the gene pool.

It is all about love.... maybe not so much love for the individual dog as much as it is a love for the greater good of the entire breed... but thats not to say that the Dogman doesn't love his cur dogs.... the Dogman knows from the word go that the American Pit Bull Terrier is a WORKING breed.... no different than a hunting dog or a sled dog. The dogs are expected to be able to perform a task, they are expected to do their job and those that can't again are removed from the gene pool. Are they neutered and given away to fur mommys like yourself? More often than not no... are they kept as pets? More often than not no.... because its a simple rule of numbers.. if every Dogman kept every cur dog they ever had... they'd be over run with dogs on their yard, and the Dogman knows that this breed isn't for everyone so they cut their loses and put the dog down. Just like no serious hunter keeps dogs that won't hunt... and no sledder keeps dogs that won't pull a sled... hell I did a blog on the Inuit sled dogs and how they use culling methods just like Dogmen do!

As for matching being the only way to prove gameness... it is!! It has been used for over a century with this breed! But now folks like you want to change the definition of gameness so that you can change the breed... Gameness is not the ability to drag a bunch of weight... its not holding down a hog.... its not snuggling on the couch... its not chasing a flirt pole... its not playing with a springpole... its not any single thing its a combination of things that add up to GAMENESS...but because you think all things need to "evolve with time" you want to change the meaning of the word to fit YOUR view of the breed....

But what it boils down to is the fact YOU don't like it... so YOU want it changed (that is the collective YOU of the fur mommys and animal righters) Instead of choosing not to participate in the sport you would rather just ban it so nobody can participate in it.... and the betterment of the breed be damned...

The fact that since the sport has been outlawed the breed is in the shitter and on the brink of extinction because the media and the Pollyanna people like you don't like the idea of their fur baby getting bit... no matter that the headlines are full of "pit bull" attacks and entire cities are banning the ownership.... and why has this happened?

Because a fraternity of Dogmen continue to practice the sport of Dog matching?? HA! its happened because the fact that the breed is not being tested and culled enough... its happened because they've strayed farther away from the pit, farther away from TRUE game testing...

Do I respect the Dogmen of old?... you better believe it... and I've thanked everyone I've ever met for what they've done for this breed..... Do I respect the Dogmen of today? Damn right I do... they are carrying on the torch for this breed and the true fanciers of these animals.. and I thank everyone of them that I've met for what they do to keep these animals true to their roots... their intended purpose.
 

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I personally think the dogmen match makers should match themselves and fight to the finish with brass knuckle ring fights. I could definitely respect that type of gameness. But that's just me.
 

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So these guys are defending the 'sport' of dog-fighting? Am I reading right?

Ugh.

Jen
 

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The difference between the dog men in the US to those in Asia is simple. In Asia they do not allow their dogs to rip others to shreds. In fact if the dog some much as draws blood the match is stopped and the dog that drew blood is disqualified. That does not happen in the US, to my knowledge. They also to my knowledge do not dump their losers in an alley way or something of the sort for it to die alone. And I do not know how much they use pits, from what I have seen it is Tosas and Bully Kuttas that are the fav, but I am sure some match pits.

There are those that know more than I do but that is what I know.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
This poster got a massive number of replies supporting his idea. A few raised concerns of cruelty and the lack of purpose in dog fighting. Then he surprisingly made one valid point.
What makes that intended purpose "cruel"? Is it cruel because you don't like it? Cruelty is too vague a concept to control correctly in my opinion....

I've seen videos of dog matches, legit dog matches in the hands of honest Dogmen... Never did I witness anything I would consider cruel... might have thought a dog was left down alittle longer than I felt was right... but still not "cruel".

You say you don't want to talk about hunting just dog matching.... well see thats the problem.. you people don't want to talk about other sports where there is animal on animal violence and injuries occur, you want to point at one particular sport and scream cruelty.

Sorry it doesn't work like that... a dog match is just that a MATCH... dogs of equal weight and same sex WILLINGLY fight each other... Hunting... Ever been coon hunting? I've seen a hunter shoot a raccoon that was treed by 6 hounds, shoot the coon out of the tree where it fell... still alive... into the pack of hounds to spend the last few moments of its life being mauled to death by 6 bigger, stronger, animals.... Sounds like a good time right? No cruelty at all there..

No personally I don't find coon hunting cruel... but it is far closer to being cruel than dog matching ever could be. The same thing with boar hunting, rabbit hunting, etc etc.... the contest isn't equal. Its a PACK of hounds on a single animal.

So why keep the breed around? You know I've asked myself that same question.... and as I have said many many times... I'd rather seen the wholesale extinction of the breed than watch the breed I love be forced into a mold it was never meant to fit. The ONLY thing that is different to me between the American Pit Bull Terrier and any other dog... is gameness... not weight pull ability, not snuggliness, not playing on a spring pole of hours on end..... GAMENESS...

Without gameness there is no American Pit Bull Terrier and without the American Pit Bull Terrier there is no Gameness... they are one in the same you take gameness out of the equation you might as well have a lab....
Although comparing dog fighting to hunting might be stretching it a bit too far, it points out the hypocrisy of singling out fighting. Using dogs for hunting, protection, LE or military purposes essentially put dogs or other animals at high risk of injury or death. All in name of human entertainment or convenience. We could also include breeding exaggerated features for aesthetics.

It is always worrying for me to see fanaticism over an issue under the flag of "what it is|was meant to be"
 

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they are one in the same you take gameness out of the equation you might as well have a lab....
Well isn't that special, a lab breaking 100 yards of skim ice to fetch a duck does not need gameness, he needs something guess I'm not sure what to call it.

With me it's simpler, like dogs. Hogs, pheasants ducks etc I eat.
 

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The answer the to the original question isn't one that can really be answered. Since "dogmanship" doesn't just have one meaning. There are pit dogmen, BUT dogman can apply to others and in other breeds, ect.

Just as gameness can be seen in different situations and apply to other breeds.

I do understand the point of where only one thing is being focused on, but other sports and activities are being attacked. Like I said they would years ago. Hog hunting, weight pull, hunting period, sled dog, ect Has no one noticed people speaking against this, wanting to ban it, ect? Even breeding, conformation or agility by some extreme groups.

We had a thread about culling and most don't agree with lethal culling. (Except for a severe temperament or health problem.)Why wouldl one agree with culling in dog fighting? Because it isn't justified. They are killing a dog for not doing something that is unnatural.

The difference between the dog men in the US to those in Asia is simple. In Asia they do not allow their dogs to rip others to shreds. In fact if the dog some much as draws blood the match is stopped and the dog that drew blood is disqualified. That does not happen in the US, to my knowledge. They also to my knowledge do not dump their losers in an alley way or something of the sort for it to die alone. And I do not know how much they use pits, from what I have seen it is Tosas and Bully Kuttas that are the fav, but I am sure some match pits.

There are those that know more than I do but that is what I know.
I won't defend dog fighting. But you are wrong.

Using phrases like "rip others to shreds" is sensationalism. I won't say dogs never get hurt, even at times severaly, but not often enough to make such statements like its the norm. Humans are very fragile and susceptible to injury in a dog attack. Yet the dogs are better build for this taking less damages and punishment. I think the biggest thing that gets a dog in a match is fatige and exhuastion on a physical level.

In Asia they don't DQ a dog because it draws blood. I won't speak for all Asians because you could be right in some cases but you are making a broad statement. In Japan and Korea I know they have matches with blood without DQ. Even with Tosa matches in Japan they keep fighting with the dogs being bloodly. They might not be severely injured but its still FIGHTING. Right? The main difference I see is they don't cull losers. Even if the dog loses a match they can be bred or fought again where most Pits don't get that opportunity. Though Pit dog fighting in Japan does fall under the same rules as here in the US basically and is slightly different from the Tosa matches. Korean dogmen who raise game APBTs also use the same rules and methods as their US counterparts. Neither dump their dogs in an "alley way" to "die alone". Dog fighting isn't a defendable sport (it's not necessary like other jobs, even if the animal is in danger like military) but I don't see the point in demonizing one set of people and making the others seem "ok" "not as bad".

In Russia dog fighting seems very unorganized. They will fight almost any breed (large aggressive dog) sometimes the dogs are not really hurt at all. In other cases it ends in death. They also fight dogs of considerable size difference and ability. Basically it very much varies.

wvasko as to that quote, there are a lot of non game bred APBTs but yet we can clearly see they are not "labs". This poster is oversimplifying the matter. I do want determined, drivey, condfident dogs. But this is something I figured out sometime ago. If gameness can only be proved by dog fighting then we don't need that level of gameness. Obviously "gameness" is a great trait to have overall but you don't need a deep game dog for the fighting pit since fighting serves no purpose.
 

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wvasko as to that quote, there are a lot of non game bred APBTs but yet we can clearly see they are not
"labs". This poster is oversimplifying the matter. I do want determined, drivey, condfident dogs. But this is something I figured out sometime ago. If gameness can only be proved by dog fighting then we don't need that level of gameness. Obviously "gameness" is a great trait to have overall but you don't need a deep game dog for the fighting pit since fighting serves no purpose.
Works for me.
 

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The fact that since the sport has been outlawed the breed is in the shitter and on the brink of extinction because the media and the Pollyanna people like you don't like the idea of their fur baby getting bit... no matter that the headlines are full of "pit bull" attacks and entire cities are banning the ownership.... and why has this happened?

Because a fraternity of Dogmen continue to practice the sport of Dog matching?? HA! its happened because the fact that the breed is not being tested and culled enough... its happened because they've strayed farther away from the pit, farther away from TRUE game testing...
Who's fault is this? Dogmen. It is dogmen who sold 1000s of puppies to the general public.

It is the reason why the breed is being ruined everywhere you look. Poor structure, bad temperament, ect. This breed is the most popular breed (in terms of numbers) how many are actual responsible owners or good breeders. Very few.

All Pits go back to game dogs somewhere, so where did the general public get the dogs which dogmen knew they wouldn't be game testing?

They still continued to do so in the modern times. Thats why you see game dogs in pedigrees of byb dogs, thats why you see them crossed to bully lines.........you see them in foundation of weight pull and show lines.LOL It seems the pit dogman's admirers are much more concerned about it than the actual pit dogmen themselves.
 

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Ah, more definding of killing dogs. Despicable. Scum of the Earth. I don't care if they're hunters or fighters or sledders or whatever. If they kill perfectly good dogs for not playing their games they are scum. Period.
 

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I really regret being snoopy... I just googled part of the OP's quote, and found the Pit Bull forum it was posted in. Spent my lunch hour reading the 29-page thread. WOW. I can't believe that there are so many people out there who believe that dog fighting is still relevant, still necessary and integral to keeping the APBT a superior breed. Can't believe the avatars showing snarling pits and pits on huge elephant chains. That so many of the posters are disgusted at "normal" (aka "dog-mommies" as they are called) people would dare get a Pit Bull, forcing it to be something it's not-- a.k.a. a pet. That being a pet is denying these dogs an important part of their heritage. What the heck--?

Jen
 

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I really regret being snoopy... I just googled part of the OP's quote, and found the Pit Bull forum it was posted in. Spent my lunch hour reading the 29-page thread. WOW. I can't believe that there are so many people out there who believe that dog fighting is still relevant, still necessary and integral to keeping the APBT a superior breed. Can't believe the avatars showing snarling pits and pits on huge elephant chains. That so many of the posters are disgusted at "normal" (aka "dog-mommies" as they are called) people would dare get a Pit Bull, forcing it to be something it's not-- a.k.a. a pet. That being a pet is denying these dogs an important part of their heritage. What the heck--?
Yeah. I was a member of that forum a long time ago, and it's pretty sick and actually really scary to see just how many people on there support dog fighting. People who at first glance, seeing pictures of their dogs and reading about some of the activities they're into (one girl's dog is actually a service animal), who seem like every day, ordinary good pet owners, but are 100% okay with dog fighting. I get a sort of Satanic Cult vibe off the place.

Aside from money and drugs, what purpose does dog fighting serve other then providing sick twisted enjoyment to people that get off on watching other living beings suffer? How does that benefit a dog breed in ANY way? It's such a selfish, cruel and pointless concept! The APBT has an enthusiastic, devoted energy like no other breed, which is what makes them such good fighters. That "give it your all and never give up" spirit can be used for so many, many positive and greater purposes.
 

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OP...why don't you just ask your original question on THAT forum?
nobody on this forum can answer for those people....

I'm a member on that forum and as far as I know I don't belong to a satanic cult LOL
 

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I'm a member on that forum and as far as I know I don't belong to a satanic cult LOL
I didn't mean the place was literally. It's just I get a very creepy, negative vibe off the place. Kind of like when you meet someone really nice, and sweet, become their friend, are all happy that you made a new friend, then find out they're actually a member of the KKK. That kind of creepy feeling, which is why I stopped going there.
 

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This is something I've come across and i have a hypothesis as to the motivation for this sort of thing. I think its psychological. Sort of akin to those husbands who beat their wives and will swear up and down that they love and adore those same wives. Its a like a disconnect in the brain. I'm not trying to excuse any of it but i don't think its as cut and dried as "they are all PURE SCUM".
 

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Aside from money and drugs, what purpose does dog fighting serve other then providing sick twisted enjoyment to people that get off on watching other living beings suffer? How does that benefit a dog breed in ANY way? It's such a selfish, cruel and pointless concept! The APBT has an enthusiastic, devoted energy like no other breed, which is what makes them such good fighters. That "give it your all and never give up" spirit can be used for so many, many positive and greater purposes.
I'm confused. What does dog fighting have to do with "money and drugs".

It is dog fighting that created the characteristics of the breed. But correct traits can be maintained without it.
 

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I'm confused. What does dog fighting have to do with "money and drugs".
In most cases, drugs and money are the driving force behind why people choose to fight Pit Bulls in tournaments, because they think that's what they're going to get if they win.

This is something I've come across and i have a hypothesis as to the motivation for this sort of thing. I think its psychological. Sort of akin to those husbands who beat their wives and will swear up and down that they love and adore those same wives. Its a like a disconnect in the brain. I'm not trying to excuse any of it but i don't think its as cut and dried as "they are all PURE SCUM".
I agree on the psychological motivation behind it, though to me I think it has more to do with power and the need to feel superior. Not necessarily superior over the dogs, but just in general. It's an observation I've made and noticed with people my whole life, even those that don't have Pit Bulls, and know little to nothing about dog fighting. People tend to subconsciously view their dogs as a reflection of themselves, and by fighting their dog against someone elses dog, and watching their dog rip the other one apart, it's almost as if they have that kind of power over the owner of the other dog. As if it makes them feel more superior. When I was a kid "I bet my dog could kick your dog's ass!" was something not uncommon to come out of the mouths of smug neighborhood kids, despite living in a fairly peaceful, upscale neighborhood in a small town where dog fighting and Pit Bulls in general were pretty unheard of. I still see this exact same mentality in the adult world on occasion, and I especially see it from the "dogmen" and wanna-be dogmen I've talked to.
 

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In most cases, drugs and money are the driving force behind why people choose to fight Pit Bulls in tournaments, because they think that's what they're going to get if they win.
No hardly.

When a dog is match there is $ involved. Sometimes a little which isn't a profit. Other times there is $ to be made. I'm sure its more than "they think that's what they're going to get" as ahead of time they know the agreed upon amount is for the contracted match. Of course not everyone matches dogs. But they STILL game test.

Drugs are not involved in the matching of dogs.

The reason behind it has nothing to do with drugs.

The driving force is proving gameness, having the best dog, ect.

In most cases people are not making a profit.

I can only imagine the ONLY time drugs would be involved is with drug dealers and gang bangers.
 

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Zim you might be onto something. Though I mean he has to know his wife doesn't enjoy being hit? Where as dogmen see their dogs get injured they believe its ok since they enjoy it. Can't say I disagree though. Like some pedophiles, people say they are just scum and its for a good reason. Yet these pedophiles say they love children, are not harming them and would never hurt them. You do have the sadistic ones which torture and kill their victims too.
 
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