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I should add that I have enormous admiration for the rescue work Nekomi does; my issue is with the fact that rescue is even needed in the first place. I agree that legislation is not the asnwer - I have distinct libertarian instincts on issues such as these - but I can't think of too many cases where 'responsible owner' and 'wolfdog' go together. I understand that there people out there with the knowledge & resources to care for these animals, and they should not be penalized for the stupidity of others.

My main worry is the same one that matches my feelings regarding DW in general - I feel that people at home watch CM in action, and think they can do the same thing. Unlike others here, I have no problem with CM's techniques - when it'd done by CM. The problem is that way too many wannabes see what he does without understanding why & how he does it, start randomly smacking & alpha rolling their dogs, get bit, surrender the dog as 'dominant-aggressive'. Then the dog gets put to sleep, the people get another dog, and the cycle repeats.

My biggest worry is that the show will feature CM doing what CM does, smiling with the dogs after 15 minutes, and then there will be a huge rush of people buying wolfodgs because it looks so easy and they think they can handle it.
 

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I thought it was a great episode and look forward to the new one. The food aggression/resource guarding and other issues disappeared and in the follow up session, the fear aggression with other dogs was also dealt with.
I don't think the dog aggression issue was resolved. In fact, I think almost no headway was made. He makes her lie down, he tugs her leash, he kicks and pokes her, to no avail. Even when she is superficially controlled, she remains tense, and as soon as another dog gets too close she snaps. She is never out of the "red zone" (his term). At the end Milan just stops trying to get her close to the other dogs. I'm glad that when they show them going to the dog park at the end, she is wearing a muzzle.

It wasn't fear aggression, it was just straight up aggression. (Although she does get a little scared when surrounded by Milan's dogs at his compound.)
 

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My biggest worry is that the show will feature CM doing what CM does, smiling with the dogs after 15 minutes, and then there will be a huge rush of people buying wolfodgs because it looks so easy and they think they can handle it.
I completely agree with you here. But there is a saving grace (for the wolfdogs' sake)...

The majority of people buying a wolfdog after watching CM will not do their research. (The ones that do, will either do the right thing and rescue, after building proper containment and educating themselves, or just not get a wolfdog at all.)

Therefore, it's highly likely that the vast majority of these people won't end up with true wolfdogs at all, but rather the husky/Shepherd/Great Pyr/etc. mixes that are bred alllll over the country and sold as wolfdogs. Without a lot of research, it's nearly impossible for the common person to identify the real McCoy. As I've experienced and many others on the forum have too, I'd say at least 70% of the animals out there, owned in private homes and labeled as "wolfdogs", either have no wolf in them at all, or significantly less than advertised.

This is a deceitful and shameful practice by the BYBs selling these misadvertised animals, but for real wolfdogs it is a huge insurance policy. If everyone who claims they have a wolfdog REALLY had the real thing... well, the mind boggles.
 

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I don't think the dog aggression issue was resolved.
Watch the conclusion at 45:25. The owners talk about their progress at the dog park. I didn't say it was resolved, I said it was dealt with. The dogs were progressing nicely, to the satisfaction of the owners... WHat more could you ask for? :)

Hyde and Vada
 

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My biggest worry is that the show will feature CM doing what CM does, smiling with the dogs after 15 minutes, and then there will be a huge rush of people buying wolfodgs because it looks so easy and they think they can handle it.
Oh boy, I sure hope not. I saw this episode & what I got from it was "OMG that animal was never meant to be in captivity."

The studies that have been done on wolves vs. dogs show that wolves are simply not wired to respond to people. Wolf hybrids I have no experience with - but watching that show reinforced what I would have already thought - it's just not a good idea for the average person.
 

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The studies that have been done on wolves vs. dogs show that wolves are simply not wired to respond to people.
Are you talking about the study that was done, where humans pointed to hidden food and the dogs followed the human's hand to find the food, but the wolves would not do the same thing? It seemed to suggest that wolves were not capable of responding to human cues in the same way as dogs. (link to study)

A newer study is showing that the results may not be as cut-and-dried as the previous study suggested. Here is a link to a similar experiment that was done, that came to the completely opposite conclusion, that "domestication is not a prerequisite for human-like social cognition in canids" (quote from study). It points out several major flaws with the previous study and proves that the method of testing in the previous experiment likely caused the results to be skewed.

This is a REALLY interesting article and I'd encourage anyone interested in wolves to read it. It has not only a very thorough description of the testing process, but also photographs, charts, and drawings explaining how the test was conducted. Very cool. :)

http://www.biol.ttu.edu/faculty/bel...or (Zool 4312)/dogs social skills refuted.pdf
 

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Are you talking about the study that was done, where humans pointed to hidden food and the dogs followed the human's hand to find the food, but the wolves would not do the same thing? It seemed to suggest that wolves were not capable of responding to human cues in the same way as dogs. (link to study)

A newer study is showing that the results may not be as cut-and-dried as the previous study suggested. Here is a link to a similar experiment that was done, that came to the completely opposite conclusion, that "domestication is not a prerequisite for human-like social cognition in canids" (quote from study). It points out several major flaws with the previous study and proves that the method of testing in the previous experiment likely caused the results to be skewed.

This is a REALLY interesting article and I'd encourage anyone interested in wolves to read it. It has not only a very thorough description of the testing process, but also photographs, charts, and drawings explaining how the test was conducted. Very cool. :)

http://www.biol.ttu.edu/faculty/bel...or (Zool 4312)/dogs social skills refuted.pdf
(i know this wasn't addressed to me..)

but what I mentioned wasn't this...

the big issue here IMO is something you Nekomi alluded to in your comparison of Yuki and Jasper.

I think..at least in my experience...Wolves and Wolfdogs do recognize human signals...the issue is how they react to them..the way you described Yuki sounds kinda like several of the wolfdogs Ive met..one in particular that if you even inadvertently show threatening body language, she'd go after you. or if you ran or made high pitched noises...she'd give chase. She was also very particular about who she would let approach her...if you weren't a known entity, she wanted zilch to do with you except to make you go away.

She is the kind of Wolfdog Im scared this idea is going to bring forth. She is the kind of Wolfdog that makes this a bad bad bad idea IMO.
 

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I agree with you entirely Zim... the reactions are so much more extreme. That's why I believe they should only go to very well-prepared homes, who have some sort of hands-on experience working with or studying wolves and/or wolfdogs.

In the wrong hands they are an utter and complete disaster. In acceptable hands, they are manageable. In capable, competent hands, they can be extremely well-adjusted canines. Unfortunately the latter is the rarest situation of the three.

Like I said, I'm really not happy with CM deciding to do shows on wolfdogs. I worry for the wolfdogs that will be "trained" on the show, I worry for the public view of wolfdogs becoming even more negative due to the behavioral issues on the show, I worry about idiots acquiring them without understanding what they are doing. In my mind, it is just another way for CM to appear even more "whisperer-like" by featuring him "taming" and subduing half-wild animals. IMO, it comes across somewhat egotistical, and I think that kind of exposure will definitely attract the wrong folks to wolfdogs.
 

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I agree with you entirely Zim... the reactions are so much more extreme. That's why I believe they should only go to very well-prepared homes, who have some sort of hands-on experience working with or studying wolves and/or wolfdogs.

In the wrong hands they are an utter and complete disaster. In acceptable hands, they are manageable. In capable, competent hands, they can be extremely well-adjusted canines. Unfortunately the latter is the rarest situation of the three.

Like I said, I'm really not happy with CM deciding to do shows on wolfdogs. I worry for the wolfdogs that will be "trained" on the show, I worry for the public view of wolfdogs becoming even more negative due to the behavioral issues on the show, I worry about idiots acquiring them without understanding what they are doing. In my mind, it is just another way for CM to appear even more "whisperer-like" by featuring him "taming" and subduing half-wild animals. IMO, it comes across somewhat egotistical, and I think that kind of exposure will definitely attract the wrong folks to wolfdogs.
they're not bad..they just need more...there was a vid I found one time on youtube about a couple that owned a pure wolf...and it wasn't much different than my experiences keeping hybrids...except I didn't have the space or time to do it right...I learned a LOT though..maybe someday if I have the right situation id take another one in...but not before. Ill leave that to you for now Nekomi. :)

I wish I could find that vid again...
 

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they're not bad..they just need more...
That's so true. I realized after I posted that I should have been clearer - I was mainly thinking of high-contents. Obviously low and mid content animals are often much easier to handle and more forgiving of mistakes. But you're right, they are not "bad", just sensitive and I guess I could say, "high maintenance". :)
 

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I'm watching the episode now, halway through...

Frist - I feel like smacking the owners because to me it sounded like the husband said "ohhh, pretty wolf...I want one" without knowing what he was getting into.

Watching more...
 

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I'm watching the episode now, halway through...

Frist - I feel like smacking the owners because to me it sounded like the husband said "ohhh, pretty wolf...I want one" without knowing what he was getting into.

Watching more...
Doing the same.

Thinking the same. >_> Idiots.
 

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Second - The episode looked fine to me. But I don't think Cesar should have left Vada with them, I think she needed more rehabilitation and a sturdy leader like Cesar. With him, she might be able to take the muzzle off some time...

Third - I have mixed feelings about the upcoming episode. Though I AM worried about a rush of ill informed people looking to buy wolf hybrids, I do think/hope that Cesar will give plenty of warning during the episode that these dogs do not make suitable pets for most. However, those who do have wolf hybrids or shelters that are caring for them, I think the episode will be beneficial and will give them some idea where to start handling the situation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Thanks everyone for your thoughtful comments, links to info. & video links. This is most interesting. I'm still absorbing....
 

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the problem with that episoded is this..

all wolfdogs are not the same.

a wolfdog is a mixed breed with all that that entails....

meaning you can get animals that look like wolves and act like dogs...you can get animals that look like dogs and act like wolves. you can get any random assortment of the above..


here's the key point..

you CANNOT do that to a pure wolf (an animal that in many conservation places is typically walked on a LOGGING CHAIN...not for looks either..for safety) and expect to keep your skin intact.

look at what Nekomi wrote..

.. the reactions are so much more extreme.
people are going to see that..think that will fly with just any old wolfdog...until Joe Blow (or even Cesar himself) gets their hands on a high content whose temperment is that of a wolf. they're out there. and there are those that won't back down if they see you as a threat.

and here's the funny(or not so funny) part...that's normal. its behavior that DOESN'T need modification because its a NORMAL aspect of wolf temperment...it doesn't mean that they can't be handled...just handled with care and respect to what they are....wild.

Nekomi...Vada...what would you guess as to her content?
 

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Third - I have mixed feelings about the upcoming episode. Though I AM worried about a rush of ill informed people looking to buy wolf hybrids, I do think/hope that Cesar will give plenty of warning during the episode that these dogs do not make suitable pets for most.
Here's how I see this aspect of it. Not having an informative show about wolfdogs for fear that people might want to get one, is right up there with not having sex education because the kids might want to do it if they know about it.... or not teaching kids about birth control because it will encourage them to have sex. It's not a practical or effective way to address the problems with people and their hybrids. Nor is ignoring birth control education a practical and effective way to keep teenagers from getting pregnant.

I'm not crazy about people having these hybrids, but I know a couple of Internet friends who have them and do fantastic things with them. I'm not going to stop people from owning these animals, nor do I think it's my place to try to do so, so the more education out there about them, the better.

So I totally support anyone having a show about them. Cesar has a lot of respect for the animal and recognizes that they're not like dogs. They're different and he stresses that. If anything, it's just as likely that the problems shown on his show will discourage people from getting one.
 

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I've heard that this new wolf hybrid episode is actually a prelude to a spin-off series on National Geographic Channel staring Cesar's oldest son, who will have a show exclusively dedicated to working with wolves and wolf rehabilitation, called "The Wolf Walker". The son's pack will include both wolf hybrids and at least one pure wolf. Should be interesting !
 
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