[shipcamein]

Posted here a while back about puppy selection (found a blacklab/mutt from shelter) and some bite advice (he was only 8 weeks old). Mostly going well, still working on the angry/sleepy/hungry snap or bite. It happens. Thanks for all the great advice.
Here are some contradictions I have seen, even on this website:
1. Maintain eye contact / look away when trying to stop biting.
2. Move to other room from biting dog / never leave dog unattended, not even a moment.
3. Say NO BITE / do NOT say NO BITE
4. Play tug of war/do NOT play of war
5. Try ONE technique and stick with it/List of 5 or 10 things to always do
6. Punish/don’t punish (I don’t need advice here – I will not physically punish the dog, no matter the opinions of many/few)
Also, a small loop I am sometimes in – dog eliminates in the evening, then wants to play, then has to drink…then has to go at 2am.
Or – dog eliminates, I refuse to give him water after 8pm, he becomes …desperate for a drink around 11, to the point of not sleeping/howling.
So – water, or no water, in the evenings? (Refusing to play after going out at 8 or so is not really an option – he’s wide awake and ready to romp.)
Thoughts? Thanks…

 

[Wicket]

I think you just have to do what works, and what you feel comfortable with. All dogs learn differently, and different methods work. Consistency is what's most important with any of those contradictions. For puppies, I think it's best to go with the least aggressive or non-aggressive methods, this way the dog can build trust in you and not learn to be fearful. However, if it's been a long time and one technique isn't working, you have to try another one and stick with that for a while and see if there is any progress. You have to make sure once you make the rule (ie no tug of war, jumping, etc), you have to stick with the rule. Nothing is more frustrating than a confused dog, and this can lead to a bunch of problems. For the small loop you are in.... maybe you can give him a couple of ice cubes? It'll give him water very gradually, so it quenishes his thrist, but not enough to fill his bladder. What time is bed time? Do you take him out right before bed as well?

 

[Hambonez]

Posted here a while back about puppy selection (found a blacklab/mutt from shelter) and some bite advice (he was only 8 weeks old). Mostly going well, still working on the angry/sleepy/hungry snap or bite. It happens. Thanks for all the great advice.
Here are some contradictions I have seen, even on this website:
1. Maintain eye contact / look away when trying to stop biting.
2. Move to other room from biting dog / never leave dog unattended, not even a moment.
3. Say NO BITE / do NOT say NO BITE
4. Play tug of war/do NOT play of war
5. Try ONE technique and stick with it/List of 5 or 10 things to always do
6. Punish/don’t punish (I don’t need advice here – I will not physically punish the dog, no matter the opinions of many/few)
Also, a small loop I am sometimes in – dog eliminates in the evening, then wants to play, then has to drink…then has to go at 2am.
Or – dog eliminates, I refuse to give him water after 8pm, he becomes …desperate for a drink around 11, to the point of not sleeping/howling.
So – water, or no water, in the evenings? (Refusing to play after going out at 8 or so is not really an option – he’s wide awake and ready to romp.)
Thoughts? Thanks…

People have different opinions. Find what works best for you.

With #2, when I 'leave the room' - I'm standing on the other side of a baby gate for 15 seconds. I'm not going to the office and responding to emails or anything.

Our trainer says tug-of-war is fine, and pairs it with "drop it" or "give" commands to practice self-control. We've always played tug with our pup (5 m/o now), and it hasn't seemed to lead to any sort of aggressive behavior.

What time is your last potty break of the day. To me "evening" implies like 5-7 pm, in which case, I'd expect the dog would need to go out again before morning. If it's 10 or 11 pm, then it might just be a maturity issue. Your dog might just not be physically able to hold it all night yet. My pup has access to water all the time EXCEPT in his crate overnight (goes in between 10 and 11, comes out between 6 and 7). He has been able to wait to potty all night since he was about 12 wks old, but that doesn't seem to be the norm.

 

[Amaryllis]

Well, any topic will give you a variety of opinions, but, some opinions have more science and truth behind them.

For example: don't tug/maintain eye contact/punish are from the old school dominance theories of dog training. Current science debunked the logic behind these theories long ago. People just don't like to let go. Tug/look away/don't (positively*) punish are more recent theories of training, as proven by a great deal of science.

As to the "do one thing and stick to it" v. "here's 5 things you can try" what we're trying to say by "stick to it" is "longer than 5 minutes". People are impatient. You have to give things time to see if they work or not. Trying something twice and then throwing up your hands and saying "man, what a stupid dog" isn't even in it, though it's a common enough thing to do.

as to "leave the room" v. "don't leave the puppy unattended" we mean "leave the room for 20 seconds which is about 15 seconds past a puppy's attention span anyway" not "go to the store and try on a bunch of shoes, then get ice cream on the way home."

I suppose we could be clearer. I mean, geez, I know what I mean, why don't you, internet stranger?


*positively in the Pavlovian sense means to add a bad sensation, i.e., a collar snap, a shock from a shock collar, etc. negative punishment means removing something good, generally your attention. When people say "purely positive", what they mean is only using positive reinforcers (clicks and treats) and punishing only in the sense of ignoring the dog, not causing any discomfort.

 

[shipcamein]

All good replies - thank you!

To clarify - bedtime (and Last Potty Call) is ~11pm - after which he commonly (and always has!) makes it til 630 or 7, which is great for me - we're on the same schedule. Ice cube is a good plan, though, I'll try it.

Most of these things seem obvious to me (or probably to anyone that's ever had a great dog relationship in the past), but "back then" we didn't have this "internet thing" to fill our heads with bad ideas.

A couple more: Collar or harness? Short leash or "spring loaded extendable?"

Finally - and off topic - this dog loves learning tricks. He catches on quick, and has excellent memory (so far). One thing he hates, though - ROLL OVER. He loves to do it on his own, he loves belly rubs, but he will not do it on command...?

 

[Crantastic]

Those extendable leashes are great for large parks or fields where you can let your dog out to the full length so it can run. I hate hate hate them in the city. For some reason, I run into quite a few people who walk their dog without the leash locked, and when the dog spots mine it comes running over, extending the leash all the way, and the owner ends up struggling to get control/yelling at the dog to return to them (good luck with that) while my (reactive) dogs growl and snap at it. I often end up way off the sidewalk, in the street or on someone's lawn, trying to keep my dogs away from the flexi-d dog.

 

[LenaCara]

I was reading an article in Readers Digest that was written by a vet tech. She said that they routinely saw dogs that had been hit by cars due to the extendable leashes breaking. Not sure if it’s true but if you do get one of those, make sure it’s meant for a dog that is much bigger than the one you plan to use it for.

 

[Wicket]

I personally HATE extendable leashes. I can see their potential in the right hands and a trained dog, but I have yet to see this happen (or at least where I live). I use just a regular 5ft leash, and a long line for outdoor fun (puppy not off-leashed trained yet, lol). I've used the extendable leashes for both small and large dogs, and they offer very little control. I've been pulled into the street before because of this. I don't like them also because they can cause rope burn, and really hurt if any body part (dog or human) gets tangled in them, worse if the dog is lunging and pulling. And for some reason, I just think it conveys the wrong message to the dog because there is always slight constant tension in the leash.

For me, I prefer harnesses for smaller dogs and collars for larger dogs, but harness for larger dogs is okay if the dog isn't hard to control.

 

[hanksimon]

1. For a Lab, Don't break eye contact... no reason in this case. Labs are playing.
2-3. Read the sticky: The Bite Stops Here, in the new owner section. If that doesn't work, then I have a set of tweaks that I published in Just Labs magazine a few years ago, that I can paste back here. You might also find by searching the Forums.
When you leave the room, you leave the dog for a few moments in a room that is boring.
4. If you can set the rules to keep the energy level reasonable, Tug is fine. Most people who have Labs like big dogs and like to rough house with the dog. Any time you rough house with an animal that can bite through a baseball bat, you need rules.
BTW, not only do I play tug, but it sounds like wolves fighting in the backyard...
5. Be consistent with one technique, try it for about a week, and if it doesn't work, then explore another method. Don't mix.
6. There are all kinds of non-physical, non-aversive punishments... I used to 'punish' my dog by making him Sit, while he was off-leash: freedom lost for a moment. You can also use a NRM - No Reward Marker, such as Opps (or Yelp! for bite inhibition)On the other hand, he started eating something disgusting off the ground, I popped him on the butt, and he looked at me, thinking I wanted to play....
7. Give the pup water to drink all the time...
8. Use a fixed length leash for walking. You lose control with a variable length.

 

[Roloni]

There are actually no contradictions.
Its just "Advice" from owners of dogs. What works for one person and their dog, may not work for others...
..in fact..

Example:I have 2 dogs . They have very different personalities. One never needed to be crated , the other one did.
Im against Crate Training...but it became necessary for one of my dogs.

Thats not a contradiction , Its just a matter of doing what works best for an individual dog...

 

[Nev Allen]

A couple more: Collar or harness? Short leash or "spring loaded extendable?"

Finally - and off topic - this dog loves learning tricks. He catches on quick, and has excellent memory (so far). One thing he hates, though - ROLL OVER. He loves to do it on his own, he loves belly rubs, but he will not do it on command...?

Others have sufficiently addressed the "contradictions" part of your post so I wont go there.

Depends on how strong your dog is and how well you have trained him to walk on a loose leash. If he is constantly pulling your shoulder out of your socket, I would be fitting him with a Gentle Walker Harness and using a strong leash and actively training him to be more polite and walk with a loose leash.

If he walks politely and has a good recall, then a Gentle Leader Halter with extendable line would not be an issue.

On the roll over, go back to basics and shape it. Nice tasty rewards given for each step towards the final action. If he continues to be stubborn, when you have him lying on his side, with his head up and back looking over his shoulder, you can always grab a hold of the front leg thats on the ground and use it as lever to flip him over - huge rewards when he goes over.

 

[wvasko]

It's not rocket science, in some instances people give advice on things that have worked for them with their personal dogs, problem, you don't own one of their dogs.

Trying different approaches is fine after proper time to see if any approach will work as you don't want training to be like a ping pong ball bouncing all over the place. Also I would not advise taking pain advice from online would be experts as that would be silly indeed.