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I'm confused....where is one supposed to get a puppy then?
Does Everyone Have To Start Somewhere?
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Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog
Why be set on adopting a super young puppy? They don't stay that way forever.. adopt a dog because you want a dog. Puppies are only tiny and cute for a few months at most, and come with a lot of issues to deal with that an older puppy or young dog usually doesn't.
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Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog
how is someone supposed to become a ''reputable breeder'' without first starting out as a ''backyard breeder''? everyone has to start somewhere, if every job opening demanded ''at least 5 years experience'' how would ANYONE ever get a job?
okay, i'm sorry, i did read posts explaining that backyard breeders are a touchy subject around here, but i had to ask.....i'll be a good boy from here on out!
I need someone to PM me so i dont get into trouble, i guess i need ''enlightened'' on why backyard breeders are evil. I've seen some VERY good dogs come from some guys' backyard. and no, i've never bred any dogs myself, i'm just curious
But i can think of a few reasons why *I* would like a puppy completely aside from the ''cute factor''
-Bonding reasons
-Training reasons
-detrimental habits are easier to never let start than they are to fix or stop them in a dog that has already developed them
but i can see your point, its definately less ''headache'' to start out with a grown dog, i wont argue with that but I dont really appreciate words being put in my mouth, and then chewed out by the person who put them there.
oh man....i know i shouldnt write this but i'm gonna anyways.
how is someone supposed to become a ''reputable breeder'' without first starting out as a ''backyard breeder''? everyone has to start somewhere, if every job opening demanded ''at least 5 years experience'' how would ANYONE ever get a job?
okay, i'm sorry, i did read posts explaining that backyard breeders are a touchy subject around here, but i had to ask.....i'll be a good boy from here on out!
I need someone to PM me so i dont get into trouble, i guess i need ''enlightened'' on why backyard breeders are evil. I've seen some VERY good dogs come from some guys' backyard. and no, i've never bred any dogs myself, i'm just curious
I'm sorry, i never meant to put off like i was ''set'' on a puppy, or a ''super young puppy''
But i can think of a few reasons why *I* would like a puppy completely aside from the ''cute factor''
-Bonding reasons
-Training reasons
-detrimental habits are easier to never let start than they are to fix or stop them in a dog that has already developed them
but i can see your point, its definately less ''headache'' to start out with a grown dog, i wont argue with that but I dont really appreciate words being put in my mouth, and then chewed out by the person who put them there.
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Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog
I've moved these posts away from the sticky so that the discussion can continue. Stickies get close when they veer off-topic.
When it comes to breeding, nobody has to start somewhere. Most of us start by spaying or neutering our dogs - specifically so we don't have litters of possibly unwanted dogs.
I may have missed it, but I don't recall anyone saying that backyard breeders are "evil" - just poor places to get a dog. I have some friends and relatives who are, or have been, backyard breeders and, like most BYBs, they love their dogs and believe they are sharing that love by selling puppies. They aren't evil - just misguided.
Puppy mills are evil.
I've moved these posts away from the sticky so that the discussion can continue. Stickies get close when they veer off-topic.
When it comes to breeding, nobody has to start somewhere. Most of us start by spaying or neutering our dogs - specifically so we don't have litters of possibly unwanted dogs.
I may have missed it, but I don't recall anyone saying that backyard breeders are "evil" - just poor places to get a dog. I have some friends and relatives who are, or have been, backyard breeders and, like most BYBs, they love their dogs and believe they are sharing that love by selling puppies. They aren't evil - just misguided.
Puppy mills are evil.
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yes.
the good ones start by learning. learning the breed standard, learning about genetics, vet pre and post natal care, training, and much much more.
then they branch out, learn how to spot a well built, proper and healthy animal. they handle dogs in competition events. they find an exemplary dog with good ofa, cerf, pennhip etc
they find a mentor. someone to guide them and to turn to for advice.
that's the basics anyway
the good ones start by learning. learning the breed standard, learning about genetics, vet pre and post natal care, training, and much much more.
then they branch out, learn how to spot a well built, proper and healthy animal. they handle dogs in competition events. they find an exemplary dog with good ofa, cerf, pennhip etc
they find a mentor. someone to guide them and to turn to for advice.
that's the basics anyway
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Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog
As far as young puppies vs older puppies/adults/seniors, let me say that the bonding thing is crap. Really, it is. I have had three dogs come here as 9 week old puppies and I've had others come to me at age 7months, 14months, 7yrs and 11yrs. I've bonded with some of the older ones more than my current youngest dog, who is now 3 and came here at 9 weeks.
Training? What kind of training? Puppies come completely untrained, it's very easy to find a dog at a rescue/shelter/private owner already trained, both for housebreaking and obedience.
Detrimental habits? Yep, some dogs have them but you dont' know what you have, with a young pup or older dog, til you own him/her.
I'm not telling you not to get a young puppy but they're not all they're cracked up to be, always. I personally enjoy adopting older to senior dogs...the joy they bring me is unimaginable. The same is true for some puppies. My younger sheltie is 9yrs old, he's been here since 9 weeks and I can't imagine life without him. My other 3yr old dog, not so much, some days!
I'm just going to respond to a few of your points. I don't breed and have no interest in breeding, I've read too much and it scares the bejeebers outta me! I have two shelties, say I'd like to become a breeder. My job would be to research the breed intensively. Then, I have to have a female dog that is the ultimate in shelties. Correct everything. She goes to the vets, gets put through all the necessary testing to make sure she is correct. This includes anything that is important for said breed. In order to get this dog, I'd have to purchase her from a reputable breeder, who I have thoroughly researched as my hopeful dog's line is clean of health and temperment. If I'm actually still interested in breeding, I have to find a mentor to help me. Then, I have to find a male dog with correct everything as well. Say I do this, find the male and a breeding takes place, I have to be ready for a ton of responsibility. One never knows if something can go wrong during the pregnancy or the birth. I have to be ready for that, emotionally and financially. Once the puppies are born, I have to find homes for them. Ideally, before a reputable, responsible breeder has a litter, they already have homes for most of the puppies. Finding a home may sound like an easy thing to do but it's not. You want THE BEST home for your dog. You don't want to ship them, you want to meet the prospective owners. They want to come and meet you. If you can see their home, you do that. If someone refuses to show you their home, you refuse them a puppy. You have them fill out the contract your mentor has helped you to draw up. You call their references, if they have dogs, you call the vet. You make sure their dogs have regular vet care. When you know they will be good owners for your puppy, you take a deposit from them and you make sure they know that if for any reason they cannot keep the dog, you will take the dog back, anytime, no questions asked. You are responsible for all the puppies for their entire lives because you brought them into the world.
As far as young puppies vs older puppies/adults/seniors, let me say that the bonding thing is crap. Really, it is. I have had three dogs come here as 9 week old puppies and I've had others come to me at age 7months, 14months, 7yrs and 11yrs. I've bonded with some of the older ones more than my current youngest dog, who is now 3 and came here at 9 weeks.
Training? What kind of training? Puppies come completely untrained, it's very easy to find a dog at a rescue/shelter/private owner already trained, both for housebreaking and obedience.
Detrimental habits? Yep, some dogs have them but you dont' know what you have, with a young pup or older dog, til you own him/her.
I'm not telling you not to get a young puppy but they're not all they're cracked up to be, always. I personally enjoy adopting older to senior dogs...the joy they bring me is unimaginable. The same is true for some puppies. My younger sheltie is 9yrs old, he's been here since 9 weeks and I can't imagine life without him. My other 3yr old dog, not so much, some days!
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Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog
There are definitely plenty of reputable "small" breeders out there... but they are highly involved in their breeds (usually for at least several years), active in showing and finishing their dogs, and usually do some sort of performance (agility, rally-o, obedience, etc) with them too... and when/if they decide to breed, they spend a lot of time researching (not just "how to breed", but pedigrees, the health of the dogs in the line, and how related dogs have turned out, plus they do health checks which take time and money), they're not just casual dog owners who decide to have a litter.
Reputable breeders typically not only have homes lined up for the litter before it is born, but often have a waiting list as well - often new breeders considering their FIRST litter will too if they're doing things right. That's really the difference, it's the amount of time and education invested in the process before any breeding is done the distinguishes a BYB from a reputable one... it's not a matter of how long they've been breeding at all. Someone could be a BYB for 20 or 30 years and never be anything more than that.
I don't honestly think any reputable breeders have started out as BYB's.... a BYB is someone who decides since they have two 'pedigreed' (and occasionally "purbred but no papers") dogs they should have a litter (or 10) to make some money. They're not really about the betterment of the breed or finding the most appropriate homes for those pups, all they consider is dollar signs (and completely miss that it typically costs MORE money to breed and raise a litter of puppies if you do it right, than you'll get back from it).
There are definitely plenty of reputable "small" breeders out there... but they are highly involved in their breeds (usually for at least several years), active in showing and finishing their dogs, and usually do some sort of performance (agility, rally-o, obedience, etc) with them too... and when/if they decide to breed, they spend a lot of time researching (not just "how to breed", but pedigrees, the health of the dogs in the line, and how related dogs have turned out, plus they do health checks which take time and money), they're not just casual dog owners who decide to have a litter.
Reputable breeders typically not only have homes lined up for the litter before it is born, but often have a waiting list as well - often new breeders considering their FIRST litter will too if they're doing things right. That's really the difference, it's the amount of time and education invested in the process before any breeding is done the distinguishes a BYB from a reputable one... it's not a matter of how long they've been breeding at all. Someone could be a BYB for 20 or 30 years and never be anything more than that.
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Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog
Think of it this way -- a mortgage broker doesn't have to start off in the sub-prime market in order to become a reputable mortgage broker. A newspaper reporter doesn't have to start with a tabloid to become a reputable reporter.
Neither of these things are evil, nor are they necessarily ethical. One does not have to compromise ethics as a backyard breeder in order to become a reputable breeder. In fact, chances are, if one starts as a byb, one will never get to become a reputable breeder.
I think the problem is that there are so many barriers (mostly financial) to becoming a reputable breeder, that many people don't want to go that route. There are also barriers (not just financial, but also in ability to locate the reputable ones) to finding a reputable breeder, that many, many people don't know how to go about doing it.
Think of it this way -- a mortgage broker doesn't have to start off in the sub-prime market in order to become a reputable mortgage broker. A newspaper reporter doesn't have to start with a tabloid to become a reputable reporter.
Neither of these things are evil, nor are they necessarily ethical. One does not have to compromise ethics as a backyard breeder in order to become a reputable breeder. In fact, chances are, if one starts as a byb, one will never get to become a reputable breeder.
I think the problem is that there are so many barriers (mostly financial) to becoming a reputable breeder, that many people don't want to go that route. There are also barriers (not just financial, but also in ability to locate the reputable ones) to finding a reputable breeder, that many, many people don't know how to go about doing it.
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Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog
While I mostly agree with what Trixie said, I tend to attribute a lot of their irresponsible practices to ignorance. That isn't an excuse nor does it make it ok, but I really believe the average byb is acting out of ignorance rather than malice. I don't think it's an informed decision to skimp out and become a byb over a responsible breeder for most folks but rather a lack of knowledge regarding responsible breeding practices. I've patiently explained to more than one person in my life why breeding their dog would be a very bad idea even though they were all good people and thought their dogs were great. Most had either no idea about health testing or were very limited in their knowledge.
I also think ignorance is the same reason the average puppy buyer goes through a byb or pet store rather than a responsible breeder. They don't know what to look for in a breeder and they don't understand why it matters--they got their last dog from a byb or pet store and that worked out fine! Or they love the neighbors dog so of course they want one of her pups! Plus, puppies have magical powers that turn normally rational people's brains to mush and cause them to make stupid decisions without thinking.
While I mostly agree with what Trixie said, I tend to attribute a lot of their irresponsible practices to ignorance. That isn't an excuse nor does it make it ok, but I really believe the average byb is acting out of ignorance rather than malice. I don't think it's an informed decision to skimp out and become a byb over a responsible breeder for most folks but rather a lack of knowledge regarding responsible breeding practices. I've patiently explained to more than one person in my life why breeding their dog would be a very bad idea even though they were all good people and thought their dogs were great. Most had either no idea about health testing or were very limited in their knowledge.
I also think ignorance is the same reason the average puppy buyer goes through a byb or pet store rather than a responsible breeder. They don't know what to look for in a breeder and they don't understand why it matters--they got their last dog from a byb or pet store and that worked out fine! Or they love the neighbors dog so of course they want one of her pups! Plus, puppies have magical powers that turn normally rational people's brains to mush and cause them to make stupid decisions without thinking.
and yet, without bybs and oops litters, there would be no dog ownership in the US.
Reputable breeders, and by that I mean breeders who show and or work their dogs, produce only a small percentage of the 4-6 million puppies needed each year to maintain an adequate dog population.
Reputable breeders, and by that I mean breeders who show and or work their dogs, produce only a small percentage of the 4-6 million puppies needed each year to maintain an adequate dog population.
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I've been giving this some thought, and I think it is a lot like the housing market and buying a house and obtaining a mortgage. (and by extention, what led to mass foreclosures and a sinking economy is the same principle that has brought us an overpopulation of dogs and overcrowded rescues)
When you go and purchase a house, you have to look at houses, establish a budget, save a downpayment, inspect the home, apply for a mortgage, sign a contract, make an offer... it's a long process and we don't expect it to be easy. We also don't expect everyone to be able to purchase a house. We don't expect everyone to buy a new house, either. (in fact, most people don't. They buy already existing homes. Well, until about 1996, that is) But are you going to buy a house without knowing what kind of work it will need? Would you buy a house based on appearance alone?
When shady lenders (with the encouragement of the government) loosened lending requirements and made sub-prime loans to people with less saved and a history of not paying back debts, things went wrong. People bought beyond their means. Sure, some people have not had any problems paying their mortgage on their small income, but many, many people did. Now we are in a mess. We have too many homes and people can't afford to continue living in the ones they had.
People thought they deserved a house at any cost, and there were unethical people out there willing to give them the money.
Like houses, people want dogs. Nothing wrong with that. You can take time and look for the right breed (like looking for houses), find a breeder, ask questions, get health guarentees (similar to a home inspection, in a way) wait for planned litter, place a deposit (down payment) on the dog, sign a contract, and let the breeder pick your dog based on your needs.
When people got impatient, other means were developed that are, in some ways, sinister. A backyard breeder is probably more like the lender who is just excited that they can sell to more people and make more money, where a puppy mill is more like the shady lenders who sold poor people expensive loans. (to extend the analogy, I think of rescues as the equivelent to renters, "oops" litters the equivelent to buying a fixer-upper in a marginal neighborhood, and a reputable breeder like purchasing a new or existing home in a desirable neighborhood of your choice.)
Of course, people need a place to live, so they rent, buy is less desireable neighborhoods, purchase from friends or family. People also get dogs through friends, "oops" litters and rescues, but if you want a new house in desirable neighborhood, you have to take the right steps. If you want a purebred dog to raise from puppyhood, one should take the right steps.
The biggest difference is that a house is a HUGE expense and a dog is pretty small in comparison. But both will have problems down the road, are investments (whether financial or emotional) and should be obtained by putting thought and work into ones decision.
This is long, but I hope it somewhat makes sense.
When you go and purchase a house, you have to look at houses, establish a budget, save a downpayment, inspect the home, apply for a mortgage, sign a contract, make an offer... it's a long process and we don't expect it to be easy. We also don't expect everyone to be able to purchase a house. We don't expect everyone to buy a new house, either. (in fact, most people don't. They buy already existing homes. Well, until about 1996, that is) But are you going to buy a house without knowing what kind of work it will need? Would you buy a house based on appearance alone?
When shady lenders (with the encouragement of the government) loosened lending requirements and made sub-prime loans to people with less saved and a history of not paying back debts, things went wrong. People bought beyond their means. Sure, some people have not had any problems paying their mortgage on their small income, but many, many people did. Now we are in a mess. We have too many homes and people can't afford to continue living in the ones they had.
People thought they deserved a house at any cost, and there were unethical people out there willing to give them the money.
Like houses, people want dogs. Nothing wrong with that. You can take time and look for the right breed (like looking for houses), find a breeder, ask questions, get health guarentees (similar to a home inspection, in a way) wait for planned litter, place a deposit (down payment) on the dog, sign a contract, and let the breeder pick your dog based on your needs.
When people got impatient, other means were developed that are, in some ways, sinister. A backyard breeder is probably more like the lender who is just excited that they can sell to more people and make more money, where a puppy mill is more like the shady lenders who sold poor people expensive loans. (to extend the analogy, I think of rescues as the equivelent to renters, "oops" litters the equivelent to buying a fixer-upper in a marginal neighborhood, and a reputable breeder like purchasing a new or existing home in a desirable neighborhood of your choice.)
Of course, people need a place to live, so they rent, buy is less desireable neighborhoods, purchase from friends or family. People also get dogs through friends, "oops" litters and rescues, but if you want a new house in desirable neighborhood, you have to take the right steps. If you want a purebred dog to raise from puppyhood, one should take the right steps.
The biggest difference is that a house is a HUGE expense and a dog is pretty small in comparison. But both will have problems down the road, are investments (whether financial or emotional) and should be obtained by putting thought and work into ones decision.
This is long, but I hope it somewhat makes sense.
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That's all well and good, and you've expressed that opinion enough times that I know I'm hardly going to change it, but at the VERY least there is no excuse for not doing proper health testing prior to breeding.
Regardless, the way to become a reputable breeder by the standard definition is to choose a breed, research them heavily, meet breeders, owners, and individuals of the breed. Learn the good, the bad, and the ugly of the breed and its history. Establish your network, figure out your goals, find a mentor. It's a long process, which is why for many breeders it's a labor of love.
There's no reason to have "practice" litters en route. In fact, doing so would likely hurt your chances of earning the respect of those who could help you the most.
People have started out from pretty much everywhere. No shame in starting from the bottom and working up. If you read back through the history of good breeders, you'll see that a lot of them started out as a BYB, and then they went to a puppy match, kennel, etc and got hooked and that's all she wrote.
I have friends that started out as BYBs and all they bred were sound tempered dogs, in a breed where temperaments were terrible, (they did a good job of it, too) then they got into showing and are now excellent responsible breeders/exhibitors of their breed. Their reps haven't been hurt in the least by what they were.
I have friends that started out as BYBs and all they bred were sound tempered dogs, in a breed where temperaments were terrible, (they did a good job of it, too) then they got into showing and are now excellent responsible breeders/exhibitors of their breed. Their reps haven't been hurt in the least by what they were.
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I disagree with you but it may be we have differing opinions on what makes a true BYB. My 9yr old sheltie came from what I call a hobby breeder. She had the female, the dog was her pet, all her dogs, puppies included, were house dogs. They were obviously well loved and cared for but she did no testing, no nothing, she just had a litter or two a year (if memory serves me, she had two females) and advertised in the paper.
I think a BYB is totally different but that's JMO
Hobby, BYB I've heard the same thing labeled as both. It just depends on what word you use.
Alot of people get started by getting an AKC dog, breeding a few litters, find out about showing, go to a show, meet breeders, see some awesome dogs, and etc etc. Nuttin' wrong with that.
Alot of people get started by getting an AKC dog, breeding a few litters, find out about showing, go to a show, meet breeders, see some awesome dogs, and etc etc. Nuttin' wrong with that.
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Well, to me, a BYB is someone that you see on TV on the animal cops shows. Dirty housing, dogs not being socialized, stuff like that. To *me*, they're two different things
Someone getting a dog labeled "AKC", which is any purebred dog, one you can buy from a byb, a hobby breeder and your local pet store, then breeding a few litters, *I* find alot wrong with that and we're just going to disagree on that. I have no issue buying a puppy from a breeder that has good dogs, proven dogs, health checked dogs, heck, that's where my last puppy came from but to have some person who has a purebred dog decide to breed her because they can or because they think they can make money doing so, that's not right, IMO. There's enough dogs that need homes, if puppies are going to be born, I'd rather they'd be brought into the world by someone who has done the research and has a mentor to help them. Again, JMO
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Absolutely! There is no excuse - I think breeding without doing the proper health testing is MOST irresponsible.
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Thats the way that the forum makes ''backyard breeders'' sound, like ANYONE who doesnt have dogs that cost over $2,000 needs to have the animal planet ''animal rescues'' shows come down to their rottweilers stuck in bird cages, used only for breeding (thats why i said you people make it sound EVIL)..... i've known PLENTY of people (AND I'M SURE MY DOG THAT CAME FROM THE SHELTER WAS A BACKYARD DOG, SHE'S THE BEST BEHAVED DOG I'VE EVER SEEN!!!) and i've purchased both of my puppies from ''backyard breeders'' who make SURE (even go so far as to come visit your house!) that their puppies go to a good home, and they make sure that they are plenty old and up to date on shots and make sure that the pups dont have any ''fears'' (loud noises, stairs, things like that), which is something that i gaurantee NO ''puppy mill'' does. they may make sure that they're good to go and wont die within a month, and ship them off to make the money.
I WILL ALWAYS BUY FROM ''BACKYARD BREEDERS''! I WILL NEVER PAY OVER $200 FOR A DOG.
IF THE DOG WAS BORN IN A BIRDCAGE, IT GIVES ME THAT MUCH MORE INCENTIVE TO RESCUE IT!
at any rate, i think i'm done with the forum, i dont like the ''vibe'' around here, reviewing the threads it seems the majority of the members are just waiting to jump down someones throat (not mine, thats just the impression i've got from reading other peoples posts), and i came here for positive feedback and other reasons than to be bitched at, and listen to others bitch at everyone else and act like they're the greatest dog owners on the planet and do no wrong, and anyone less is the worlds worst threat to any dog within a 500 mile radius. i know that everyone on the other forums i belong to are MUCH MUCH friendlier than the general ''pupulation'' around here.
so dont feel compelled to respond to this, i probably will never see it. unless you just HAVE to release your urge to BITCH, that seems to be the trend around here.
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