Didnt realise so many people believed in Alpha nonsense.

13498 Views 172 Replies 45 Participants Last post by Pawzk9, Sep 17, 2012

mashlee08

Discussion Starter · Aug 7, 2012

So I have moved areas and become part of a face book group for the local dog park.

There are quite a few members who post, asking how do I get my puppy not to be the alpha over the older dogs and blah blah blah she needs to know she is at the bottom.

I REALLY did not realize how many people bought into that BS.

Sigh.

21 - 40 of 173 Posts

tirluc

· #21 · Aug 7, 2012 (Edited)

what do you call it when younger dog walks up and "looks" at the older dog when the are laying somewhere or have something younger dog wants and older dog gets up and walks away....Kilt does this to Saoirse all the time.....

and i very seldom go out the door 1st and when walking 5 dogs there is no room to walk beside them and i want them where i can see them (in front)....who has control? me, cuz i say when they go out the door and i say when to stop, walk, turn, etc......and they all listen....not so much well trained as knowing who's in charge....alpha? i don't think so, but i wasn't alpha to my kids, either....

people ask me all the time which of my dogs is the alpha.....i tell them it depends on the circumstance....e.g. we do a "gate run" at the dog club (or out the door of the building when inside)...when they're at the gate/door and we're not doing a "run" i have to remove Titch to get all the other dogs to stop the excitement; once out the door when we do a "run", if TirCeo don't run, nobody runs more then about 20 ft (long enuff for them to realize Tir ain't there); and if Saoirse don't go out the door b/4 TirCeo? TirCeo don't run.....so, who leads the "run"? who's the alpha in the pack? and when it comes time for bones? anyone of them can walk up to another and look hard enuff and the other will walk away and go to a different bone.....or not, as they choose.....

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Willowy

· #22 · Aug 7, 2012

How do dogs "control resources" for other dogs? Is a dog that's cranky and possessive really dominant, or do the other dogs just kind of roll their eyes (so to speak) and give that dog whatever she wants in order to avoid a fight?

denise3099

· #23 · Aug 7, 2012

Call it whatever you want, but a dog the regularly controls resources is above the other dogs in hierarchy.

I only have one dog. Most domesticated dogs are not asserting dominance for resources. I suppose dominance may be more of a factor when resources are scarce but then pack are smaller or not at all in those dire circumstances.

As far as me controling the resuorces, there may be a fine line between my dog doing what I ask b/c she has associated me with great things, like food, or my dog doing what I ask out of fear that she won't get the food or even reverence for the bringer of food. I just don't think dogs are that smart. I think they learn to associate you with great things and think the sun sets on you. Carmen does not think for a minute that she won't get treats if she doesn't obey. But she does think that she might get treats if she does obey so she's now in the habit of giving me her paw when I ask. She sees me come trhough the door and it's all butt wagging happiness for my "resources" not tentative observation of whether I'm going to start passing out treats or not.

wvasko

· #24 · Aug 7, 2012

I've said it before never heard any of this dominance/alpha stuff in old school trainer talk and DF was 1st dog forum I joined and it was my very first adventure into dominance/alpha word training.

Pawzk9

· #25 · Aug 7, 2012

JohnnyBandit said:
IF three dogs are in a room and you put three bones in the center of the room and one dog takes control of all three bones, what do you call that? ?

Resource guarding (and often the worst offenders are dogs very lacking in skills and confidence)

JohnnyBandit said:
If your dog takes orders, follows instructions, and commands given by you, what do you call that?

Trained.

Pawzk9

· #26 · Aug 7, 2012

JohnnyBandit said:
But if you see a stray dog in heat in a vacant lot and three male dogs come into that lot... One is going to run the other two off and breed the female. I

Orrrr, the litter ends up with three different papas (not uncommon at all)

chubby

· #27 · Aug 7, 2012

I think we should all leave it to the academias to hash this one out

JohnnyBandit

· #28 · Aug 7, 2012

Willowy said:
How do dogs "control resources" for other dogs? Is a dog that's cranky and possessive really dominant, or do the other dogs just kind of roll their eyes (so to speak) and give that dog whatever she wants in order to avoid a fight?

In your scenario...... Yes the Crankly dog is dominant. Avoidance is submission.....

wvasko

· #29 · Aug 7, 2012

Pawzk9 said:
Orrrr, the litter ends up with three different papas (not uncommon at all)

Well I do not think I want a pup because mom's moral values are suspect. (kinda trampy)

JohnnyBandit

· #30 · Aug 7, 2012 (Edited)

Pawzk9 said:
Orrrr, the litter ends up with three different papas (not uncommon at all)

Quite possible.... But pappa two and three will wait until Pappa one leaves. When puppy litters end up with multiple sires, it happens often over days. They are not standing in line to take turns.

wvasko said:
Well I do not think I want a pup because mom's moral values are suspect. (kinda trampy)

Very trampy...... Lie down with dogs and wake up with fleas...

Willowy

· #31 · Aug 7, 2012

JohnnyBandit said:
In your scenario...... Yes the Crankly dog is dominant. Avoidance is submission.....

But, once she's not looking (I'm thinking of Shug

), all the other dogs will go behind her back and chew on her toys and pee on her spots and eat her food, and it seems like they hold her in contempt to some extent. Humans expect their dogs not to do these things when nobody's looking.

I dunno. I guess I don't think the way the dogs interact with each other is useful for how I interact with them.

Pawzk9

· #32 · Aug 7, 2012

JohnnyBandit said:
Quite possible.... But pappa two and three will wait until Pappa one leaves. When puppy litters end up with multiple sires, it happens often over days. They are not standing in line to take turns.
..

I've seen them do so - in the neighborhood.

Deaf Dogs

· #33 · Aug 7, 2012

I have too, actually. I used to rescue on reserves, and would often see a female in heat with multiple males around her taking turns...

Willowy

· #34 · Aug 7, 2012

Deaf Dogs said:
I have too, actually. I used to rescue on reserves, and would often see a female in heat with multiple males around her taking turns...

I've seen cats doing that, but they're quick. I would think that dogs being tied for so long, the other males would get bored and wander off. . .

xxxxdogdragoness

· #35 · Aug 7, 2012

melundie said:
This one is though and I'm hesitant to even write this. I'm not saying I agree with it, but the breeder who we got Ace from subscribes to the "dominance" theory and all that it entails..."alpha rolls" when the need arises and all. Her dogs absolutely revere her and from my limited experience would do anything she asked them to. Her dogs are extremely well trained and well behaved. She has 14 intact dogs, all of which she shares a relationship with that I have yet to see anywhere else. She did not physically restrain or discipline a single dog while we were there. With that said, not a single one shied away or flinched when she moved, they just obeyed her. They also constantly wanted to be around her. When she said "come" they came. When she said "go outside" they went. Without a second of hesitation.

Again, I'm not saying I agree, but it's really hard to completely dispute when I saw how beautifully and harmoniously they all live together.

On the flip side, despite the fact that dogs share many biological traits with wolves, they've been domesticated for 15,000 years. I have a hard time convincing myself that either of my dogs think that I'm a dog. I also don't think I need to eat first to walk in front of them on leash at all times...but then again, my dogs are not as well behaved as hers.

Just a thought.

thats how i trained Izze (sans alpha rolling) i was not a big treater... still am not really unless i am teaching a special case, like Buddy or a youngster. i use more praise then anything else... mind you i am not training for competition in anything nor am i asking my dogs to do things that would be consider outlandish by dogs & require the reward to be fitting for the deed (in the dog's mind) but i dont ask 'outlandish' things from my dogs LOL... i really dont ask much of them but what i do i expect to be obeyed (after they are taught mind you)

juliemule

· #36 · Aug 7, 2012

Deaf Dogs said:
I have too, actually. I used to rescue on reserves, and would often see a female in heat with multiple males around her taking turns...

Must not have been very dominant males

I do believe dominant dogs exist. Yet dynamics are always changing. For instance, in my dogs, the old male eats when he wants, lies where he wants, moves the others, or corrects the dogs as he sees fit. Then normally the others fall sort of numbered on down. I have brought in others that challenge some, replace positions, etc. Every once in awhile a fight may break out, usually the lesser dog backs down.

Usually dogs that live together have a structure, dogs just meeting go through all sorts of positions. It's not as simple as a stance or one rolling over. One dog may display lots of dominant or submissive actions, and then there is fear, insecurity, aggression, many number of things play a part.

Roloni

· #37 · Aug 7, 2012

JohnnyBandit said:
IF three dogs are in a room and you put three bones in the center of the room and one dog takes control of all three bones, what do you call that?

I would call that person an idiot if he instagated that type of behavior !

JohnnyBandit

· #38 · Aug 7, 2012 (Edited)

Roloni said:
I would call that person an idiot if he instagated that type of behavior !

IT was theoretical..... But every night I watch one dog pull all the toys out of the toy bin, just to have another dog take them and stack them up.

Explain this.....

Two dogs meet.... One dog immediately goes on its back and gives its underside to the other dog.....

zeronightfarm

· #39 · Aug 7, 2012

I'll probably get tomatoed for this but oh well.

I believe that dogs live in a "pack state of mind" (that sounded like CM, no beter words are comming to mind.) I believe that there is a domanant dog and the followers. I also believe dogs don't look to humans for dominance, we are not dogs, they know we aren't dogs. Just like a horse isn't going to go live with cattle, and treat them like horses. Yes they are herd animals, they live to live in a "herd" but they know that cows are not horses, and they never will treat them as such.

Rescued

· #40 · Aug 8, 2012

JohnnyBandit said:
Explain this.....

Two dogs meet.... One dog immediately goes on its back and gives its underside to the other dog.....

Hattie does that sometimes... but will also snarl and growl at every other dog and person when she's eating and they come too close to her bowl. She will claim a crate or bed for the night. She likes to pull on the leash and *gasp* walk ahead of me.

Is she "dominant"? I dont think so.... I think she's sort of like the weird kid that had a crappy upbringing and doesn't have good social skills.

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