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So I have moved areas and become part of a face book group for the local dog park.

There are quite a few members who post, asking how do I get my puppy not to be the alpha over the older dogs and blah blah blah she needs to know she is at the bottom.

I REALLY did not realize how many people bought into that BS.

Sigh.
 

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I know eh? I cant talk to anyone here without hearing about dominance theories and alpha this submissive that... not to mention the people that fawn over a certain celebrity dog trainer
 

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Oh my goodness I just got a reply from someone I gave advice too. Told me I was stupid for telling them that the older dog won't correct a 12 week old puppy. And why would I give such dangerous advice. Argh!
 

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Well, I got called stupid the other day by someone telling me I needed to let my dog sniff the other dog he was reacting to. long story, but his issues aren't normal issues and the polite bum sniff isn't going to work with him... she called me stupid, cuz she knows that it always works!
 

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ha ha ha. too true!
 

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I don't know what works with other dogs and if your dog will kill you in your sleep if you let it out the door before you, but as for Carmen, she is a sweetie pie and adores our family. We dote on her and she dotes on us. She'd follow us over hot coals just for a tummy rub. She doesn't try to boss me just because I feed her first or let her out the door first. Neither of us "dominates" the other--I'm not really even sure what that means. My dog is nice to me and I'm nice to her. If she jumps up on the couch we make room for her. If we don't want her on the couch we tell her to get off (hardly ever) and she does. I guess if you have a problem dog then maybe you need the alpha stuff but my dog likes me.
 

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Far too many people are willing to fight tooth and nail over something they heard on TV or the first thing they read on the internet.
 

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*read sarcasm here* I didnt realize so many people bought into the anti-alpha, postive only BS.

its called an opinion, people having an opinion different from yours doesnt make it BS. :rolleyes:
 

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Oh my goodness I just got a reply from someone I gave advice too. Told me I was stupid for telling them that the older dog won't correct a 12 week old puppy. And why would I give such dangerous advice. Argh!
An appropriate older dog won't seriously correct a 12 week old puppy. But there are an awful lot of inappropriate dogs out there. It's not something I would depend on. Tell me there aren't really 12 week old puppies at your dog park?
 

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IF three dogs are in a room and you put three bones in the center of the room and one dog takes control of all three bones, what do you call that?

If your dog takes orders, follows instructions, and commands given by you, what do you call that?
 

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*read sarcasm here* I didnt realize so many people bought into the anti-alpha, postive only BS.

its called an opinion, people having an opinion different from yours doesnt make it BS. :rolleyes:
It does is the BS in question is antiscientific nonsense repudiated by numerous studies.

In other words, you can have the opinion that the sky is green, but it's not. It's blue.
 

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IF three dogs are in a room and you put three bones in the center of the room and one dog takes control of all three bones, what do you call that?
I call that Kabota. Well, to be fair, Muggsy would have done that, too, after killing the other two dogs. Which is why he was never in a room with any other dogs. What's your point?

If your dog takes orders, follows instructions, and commands given by you, what do you call that?
I call that a well trained dog. Dominance ain't in it.
 

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IF three dogs are in a room and you put three bones in the center of the room and one dog takes control of all three bones, what do you call that?
How do you know if the other two dogs are "submitting" to the will of the first? What if they just don't like bones as much, aren't hungry, don't enjoy chewing etc.? Did the dog who got the bones just get to them first? Is he actively defending them? What if after he is done chewing on them one of the other dogs takes over "control" of all three?

If your dog takes orders, follows instructions, and commands given by you, what do you call that?
What do you call it when your dog whines/scratches at the door to be let out and you take him out?
 

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IF three dogs are in a room and you put three bones in the center of the room and one dog takes control of all three bones, what do you call that?
Carmie would take the bones and run away hoping the other two would chase her, but only if they have shown an interest in the bones first. She loves to play.

She does what I say, mostly, b/c she thinks I am the bringer of good things, food, treats, toys, affection. She thinks it rains food when I'm around. She gives me her paw when I ask b/c she has received treats for that in the past. She has been trained and learned to associate good behaviors with rewards and is now accustomed to behave a certain way. It's not submission at all. She associates me and my "commands" as a good thing and a rewarding experience.
 

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My dog's unofficial office nickname is Alpha Dog. My dog comes with me some days to my part time job. She's thoroughly trained and has excellent manners. A yutz I used to work with had an utter meltdown (IN THE OFFICE!) that I didn't believe in alpha dogs and being dominant over my dog. One of my officemates witnessed the whole thing and started calling my pup Alpha Dog.

It's especially wonderful when we call her, "Come here, Alpha Dog!" and she comes over with her ears back and tail wagging. She's real tough - a natural born killer... of cookies.
 

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How do you know if the other two dogs are "submitting" to the will of the first? What if they just don't like bones as much, aren't hungry, don't enjoy chewing etc.?
Yes and 2 of the dogs might be waiting for a bus.

If your dog takes orders, follows instructions, and commands given by you, what do you call that?
What do you call it when your dog whines/scratches at the door to be let out and you take him out?
Both of the above denote very well trained dogs. I suppose we have to label it or something but I surely am not gonna touch it.
 

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This one is though and I'm hesitant to even write this. I'm not saying I agree with it, but the breeder who we got Ace from subscribes to the "dominance" theory and all that it entails..."alpha rolls" when the need arises and all. Her dogs absolutely revere her and from my limited experience would do anything she asked them to. Her dogs are extremely well trained and well behaved. She has 14 intact dogs, all of which she shares a relationship with that I have yet to see anywhere else. She did not physically restrain or discipline a single dog while we were there. With that said, not a single one shied away or flinched when she moved, they just obeyed her. They also constantly wanted to be around her. When she said "come" they came. When she said "go outside" they went. Without a second of hesitation.

Again, I'm not saying I agree, but it's really hard to completely dispute when I saw how beautifully and harmoniously they all live together.

On the flip side, despite the fact that dogs share many biological traits with wolves, they've been domesticated for 15,000 years. I have a hard time convincing myself that either of my dogs think that I'm a dog. I also don't think I need to eat first to walk in front of them on leash at all times...but then again, my dogs are not as well behaved as hers.

Just a thought.
 

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Again, I'm not saying I agree, but it's really hard to completely dispute when I saw how beautifully and harmoniously they all live together.
I suspect it's a lot like kids. Some kids need a firm hand, some thrive with lots of independence. You don't have to buy the entire hierarchy model of canine social structure to be firm with your dog.
 

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Call it whatever you want, but a dog the regularly controls resources is above the other dogs in hierarchy.


And yes a dog that obeys commands is trained. He obviously understands what you want when you give a command. But what motivates him to obey?

Commands always roll downhill. At work, in family, society, in animals. They never go up hill and equals do not command each other.
The dog whining at the door is not a valid comparison. The dog is not commanding you to get up and let it out. You have a choice. You can sit there and ignore the dog. But hopefully everyone is intelligent enough to realize if they don't let their dog out, the dog is going to pee on their floor.

But when you tell a dog to sit. You are not ASKING it to sit. You EXPECT it to sit. IF the dog chooses not to sit do you say to yourself, oh well, and walk away? ( probably a lot of folks do that) But if the dog refuses and knows the command it was given, most people are going to work on that. But either through reward and repetition, or whatever method a person choose use. The goal is to have a dog obey. And if it obeying you even when it does not want to ( Example - you put the dog in a stay in front of two dogs running and playing) then you have control and are socially higher than the dog. If you were not, the dog would blow you off and run out and play with the other dogs. And why are you dominant at the end of the day.... Because YOU control the resources. That is exactly why NILIF works so well.
That is the same reason you listen to your boss... He or She controls the check book.


Now.... I DO think folks get way way too wrapped up in Alpha, Dominance, etc.... When I hear someone talking about it, I roll my eyes....... They caught the Cesar Fever..... I NEVER talk about dominance or Alpha when I am training people. We didn't talk about it 35 years ago. But we knew it was there. But just because people go overboard with it, does not meant it does not exist.

And just because there are "experts" that have discounted it exists in canines..... Does not make it so. For every "expert" that says it does not exist, there is an "expert" that says it does.

It is there.... Not just in dogs, but people, all higher animals. The only question is.... How big a part does it play in a given animals life. You don't have to be an "expert" to see it. It is there right in front of you. If there are five doe deer in a field and in season, and three bucks walk into the field, one buck is going to run the other two off and breed the does. Pick any animal and you do not have to look far to find some social aspect of that species in which dominance does not play a roll.

Now someone is going to say but dogs and deer are VERY different. Yes they are.... But if you see a stray dog in heat in a vacant lot and three male dogs come into that lot... One is going to run the other two off and breed the female. I have a feral cat feeding station outside my office window. Every day, when the lady comes and dumps the food, all the cats rush in to feed. But there is this big biscuit headed Tom that takes his sweet time. When he gets there, all the other cats back off the food and stand clear. He eats his fill and they wait, sometimes he lays down by the food and rests before eating more. They all wait. Whenever he decides to move off the rest of the cats feed. Is that cat not dominant?
 
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