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Did I buy my puppy from a puppy mill?

10K views 52 replies 30 participants last post by  RonE 
#1 ·
Last week I purchased what I thought was a pure bred Coton de Tulear from a legitimate breeder. I read through some of the posts in this forum about good breeders, but all the criteria was a little too much for me to consider. Anyway, I traveled about an hour to the breeder's home. The first thing I noticed was how the breeder and her two visiting friends were dressed. I asked if they were members of a religious sect, and she told me that they were Mennonites. She went on to explain they were similar to the Amish, but a little more modern. I liked one of the two Coton puppies she retrieved from another room in the house, and she then showed me the puppies' two parents, who were in an outside pen with about ten other dogs. She told me one of the parents was local and the other was obtained out of state. I was ready to pay the $700 cash I brought with me because that was the advertised price I saw on her web site, but she informed me she had lowered the price to $600. The paperwork (including the contract) she brought out indicated the Coton puppies' parents were ACA (American Canine Association) registered, had received some shots and had been declared healthy by some local vet.

Later that same day I brought my new puppy to a previously scheduled visit with a local Banfield vet. She informed me that the puppy probably was not a pure bred Coton (not AKC registered) and that the Mennonites had a reputation for running puppy mills. This came as a complete surprise to me. When I got home I googled puppy mills and Mennonites, and sure enough my vet was telling me the truth. Still, I'd like to think that the breeder for my Coton puppy was not running a puppy mill. She told me she and her husband were only breeding for a couple of years. Nothing on the breeder's property looked like a puppy mill like I'd seen on tv documentaries. My new puppy sure looks like a Coton, and I plan to have him neutered, so I don't care if he meets AKC standards. My vet said he has a slight overbite, but otherwise seems healthy. Some time in the future I may get a genetic test done to find out if my puppy is actually a pure bred Coton, but for now when people ask, I tell them the puppy is a Coton. I hope I didn't inadvertently buy my puppy from a puppy mill, but even puppy mill puppies need good homes.
 
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#2 ·
At this point it doesnt matter if he is from a puppy mill or not. You have that sweet tiny life to look after from here on out. I like you had no idea Puppy mills existed until I came to this forum and found out how horrible....

Now that you are aware.. You have this forum as a great tool to educate yourself for the future. You can gain knowlegde to take with you when you meet people in your situation. Knowledge is power.. You can use what you have learned to change many minds along the way.

Good luck and Id like to see pictures of your pup.
 
#3 ·
The thing is, if it's not a pure bred dog, you should get your money back.

It sounds suspiciously like it is a puppy mill, unfortunately. For one thing, quality Cotons are much more expensive than that.

A dog being registered with AKC doesn't guarantee quality. But I have not heard many good things about the ACA.

Yes, puppy mill puppies need good homes, too, but buying from them supports their business and keeps them doing what they do. It's too bad you didn't come here and talk to people before you made this purchase.

But you have this puppy now and it needs love and care. Unless you're willing to return it and get your money back and look for a real Coton.
 
#4 ·
Puppy mill or BYB - either way not what I would consider a responsible breeder. Any breeder that would just hand over a puppy to any random stranger that showed up with money is the biggest red flag. Did she really care what happened to that puppy? Or did she just want your $$. And certainly the ACA "registry" is a joke as well....a cover for puppy mills and BYBs.

When I was in college, my roommate and I bought a puppy at the flea market. That day, I contributed to the pet overpopulation problem and the misery of dogs who exist soley to produce puppies for sale. Honestly, I really had no idea! BUT, ignorance is not an excuse. I own what I did. That day, I was part of the problem. Once I did 'see the light' I decided to become a part of the solution...I can't "undo" supporting a BYB/puppy miller, but everything I do moving forward I hope mitigates my bad decision that day.

Love your puppy, but vow not to support irresponsible breeders.
 
#7 ·
The Cotons are an FSS breed though, so I would expect any reputable breeder to be selling puppies with FSS papers (it looks just like the AKC paperwork except it's orange for full registration and... pink? (I think? I'm not sure, the only set I have here are Lizzie's :p) for limited registration.) or with papers from the single breed registry. ACA is like CKC and other puppy mill registries, no one reputable would use them.

I would say that yes, your chances are very high that you did buy from a puppy mill or BYB. (The exact definition isn't really important, because the lines can be blurry- I define the difference as a puppy mill is someone who sells to brokers at least some of the time, whereas a BYB always sells direct and is just irresponsible; it's not JUST about number of dogs). There are a LOT of Amish and Mennonite puppy mills and BYBers.

Enjoy your puppy - and next time, you'll know better.
 
#6 ·
Last week I purchased what I thought was a pure bred Coton de Tulear from a legitimate breeder. I read through some of the posts in this forum about good breeders, but all the criteria was a little too much for me to consider.
Do you care to explain this? I just find it odd that you came on here, had access to all the good advice on this forum, and then chose to ignore it and do what you wanted to anyway.


I was ready to pay the $700 cash I brought with me because that was the advertised price I saw on her web site, but she informed me she had lowered the price to $600. The paperwork (including the contract) she brought out indicated the Coton puppies' parents were ACA (American Canine Association) registered, had received some shots and had been declared healthy by some local vet.
Why was the price lowered? Were you going to co own the dog and show it for the breeder? What vet did they take the puppy to? Did you get to see the vet records? How can they prove that the puppy they took to the vet was the one you took home?

If you don't know the answers to these questions, I would say that you've been had by a BYB. But, per what you said earlier, you could have avoided it but chose not to.



Still, I'd like to think that the breeder for my Coton puppy was not running a puppy mill. She told me she and her husband were only breeding for a couple of years.
And how does this make them not a puppy mill? If a bad breeder breeds for even one time, they're doing the breed a disservice.



but even puppy mill puppies need good homes
I'm glad you feel that way, because you definitely bought from a puppy mill.
 
#45 · (Edited)
Why did you need/want a purebred "Coton de Tulear"? That's quite and uncommon choice. You may have legitimate reasons but in general I find it disappointing when people think they must have the perfect, most unique purebred dog bred for them while there are so many dogs currently up for adoption.

Do you care to explain this? I just find it odd that you came on here, had access to all the good advice on this forum, and then chose to ignore it and do what you wanted to anyway.
I had the same reaction. It's not like you're buying a new pair of sneakers. A dog is a major, long-term commitment.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Like Sammgirl said, if you didn't want to support a puppymill/byb then why did you not continue your research?
I think a 10+ year commitment is worth months or years of research.
You should not justify supporting a puppymill/byb by saying "puppymill/byb puppies need homes too." Yes they do need homes, but by paying for that puppy, you're paying for another future litter.

I hope your pup has a clean bill of health and a great long life with you and your family. Enjoy the ups and downs of puppyhood and in the future, if you're not willing to do your research to find a reputable breeder, rescue.




Firstly, you cannot compare human adoption to dog adoption.
Secondly, what on EARTH would constitute a "pure bred" baby? Adopted children are mutts?? Please clarify what you mean because that is very offensive.
 
#10 ·
So your pup is from some form of BYB, sorry about your luck and I certainly won't join the bashing or suggest taking the dog back for a refund to get a "real" coton. IMO some here are just a bit to demanding on what people should do when it comes to getting a dog and though I don't agree with people who breed willy nilly and profit off of ignorance, what's done is done. You are now a proud dog owner and you get a great companion for the next 10+ years.
Side note to add that while I'm sure there are mennonite puppymills and BYB, there are also catholics, baptists etc that are doing the same thing. Not sure what the religion of these people has to do with anything....
 
#12 ·
so your pup is from some form of byb, sorry about your luck and i certainly won't join the bashing or suggest taking the dog back for a refund to get a "real" coton. Imo some here are just a bit to demanding on what people should do when it comes to getting a dog and though i don't agree with people who breed willy nilly and profit off of ignorance, what's done is done. You are now a proud dog owner and you get a great companion for the next 10+ years.
Side note to add that while i'm sure there are mennonite puppymills and byb, there are also catholics, baptists etc that are doing the same thing. Not sure what the religion of these people has to do with anything....
so true, i totally agree
 
#14 ·
For one thing, I was agreeing with mostly "what does the religion have to do with it?" and there is alot of bashing on this forum and putting people down for the choices they make. True, if we all did our homework before we bought a pup we would be the wiser but..... some of us learn as we go along. People need to be aware that they need more manners
 
#15 ·
My children are adopted. I didn't "buy" either one of them. I don't know what you would consider to be a pure bred child. There is nothing on the adoption decree indicating breed. I adopted my dog from a rescue. She is pure bred but I have nothing to prove that either. I love them all. Adopting children is nothing like adopting a dog. I just don't get the comparison. I am positive that neither of my children came from a "baby mill".
 
#16 · (Edited)
My first Aussie was registered with a National Stockdog Registry, Inc., and may or may not have been part of a puppy mill in Missouri. We bought her from a petshop and back then, didn't know better, BUT

That dog was the bestest girl in the entire world and we miss her everyday now that she has gone to heaven, after 14 years, last February.

No matter where she came from, she was the most wonderful dog that money could have bought, at any price.

She loved our family and protected us with her life and her heart. She was bright and energetic and a magnificent dog.

Never mind AKC or whatnot; she will be in our hearts forever.

National Stockdog Registry Photo

 
#20 ·
Responsible breeders don't contribute to the overpopulatin problem, they take their dogs back and rehome them, many also do rescue to help the overpopulation problem. Therefore buying from a responsible breeder is just as good as adopting from the shelter or rescue.
 
#21 ·
Buying from a breeder is not just as good as adopting form a shelter. A breeder, even a responsible one, doesn't have to breed that litter. They don't have to bring more pups into the world. But the shelter is dealing with dogs that are already born and homeless.
Also, each person's idea of a "responsible" breeder is different. The more shelters I visit, the more homeless animals I see, the more I feel that there is no such thing as a responsible dog breeder (just as I believe there's no such thing as a responsible cat breeder). But that is just my own opinion.
 
#26 ·
I'm sorry, but this just plain isn't true.

The people who were on my waiting list for Rittie's litter? Do not WANT a shelter dog. Not even a shelter collie. They want a collie with a health guarantee, predictable, superior temperament and health, and with a background where everything possible has been done to ensure that their puppy will be exceedingly happy and healthy in every way possible.

NONE of them were willing to 'settle' for a shelter dog or take the gamble with a shelter puppy. I'm not either.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Buying from a breeder is not just as good as adopting form a shelter. A breeder, even a responsible one, doesn't have to breed that litter. They don't have to bring more pups into the world. But the shelter is dealing with dogs that are already born and homeless.
They don't HAVE to do anything, they breed because they love their dogs and love the breed. And people love dogs and pets, and want to own one. There's nothing wrong with that. If nobody bred animals, pets would CEASE TO EXIST. It makes no sense to demand all dog and cat breeds go extinct, and that everyone be forced to ONLY get animals that were bred accidentally by irresponsible pet owners from shelters. We NEED responsible, quality animal breeders. There aren't enough animals in every shelter in the U.S. to even meet demand, anyway.

Forming you opinion based solely on the minority of animals that end up in shelters (8 million, half of which find homes), rather then the MAJORITY (160 million cats and dogs) that already have homes and are spoiled rotten, is completely illogical. You're focusing so hard on the bad that you can't see that shelters do not make up the most common reality of animals in this country.

Most animals end up in shelters because of owners not being able / or wanting to care for them anymore, not because 'too many animals are being bred'. The average age of an animal sent to a shelter is 1-2 years old, not newborns that nobody wanted. The average pet shop couldn't make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year charging $1-2k+ dollars a pup if there wasn't a constant, huge demand for puppies and pets every year. The shelter problem is caused by pet owners who can't handle behavior issues or can't afford to keep their animals. Look up any shelter demographic survey if you don't believe it.

There will always be animals who are homeless, or need help. Shelters can fulfill that role, and help them get rehomed. That's a valuable service. But they were never MEANT to become the only place to get a pet from. They are 'halfway houses' and animal rehabilitation centers. There will never be a time when shelters 'go out of business'. Demanding that have to happen before admitting responsible breeders have a right to exist is unrealistic.
 
#24 ·
They don't HAVE to do anything, they breed because they love their dogs and love the breed. And people love dogs and pets, and want to own one. There's nothing wrong with that.

Forming you opinion based solely on the minority of animals that end up in shelters (8 million, half of which find homes), rather then the MAJORITY (160 million cats and dogs) that already have homes and are spoiled rotten, is completely illogical. You're focusing so hard on the bad that you can't see that shelters do not make up the most common reality of animals in this country.

Most animals end up in shelters because of owners not being able / or wanting to care for them anymore, not because 'too many animals are being bred'. The average age of an animal sent to a shelter is 1-2 years old, not newborns that nobody wanted. Pet shops couldn't make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year charging $1-2k+ dollars a pup if there wasn't a constant, huge demand for puppies and pets every year. Look up the facts before you form a blanket anti-breeder bias. The shelter problem is caused by pet owners who can't handle behavior issues or can't afford to keep their animals. Just look up any shelter demographic survey.
Hm, with all the years I spent in shelters I have to say, I do not agree with that at all. In many shelters the actual numbers are greater then half that are put to sleep. It IS because of over breeding in conjunction with irresponsible owners that do NOT commit to the proper care of the animal for it's life. Shelters like to candy coat things to keep the right image in the public. They have to in order to keep the much needed donations coming in. Many shelters work their butts off trying to save as many of the animals as they can but the truth is, there are not enough homes for the animals that are already there. At least not decent homes. As far as all the other dogs that are not in shelters having homes that spoil them, again, you are lucky to believe that. In my years of rescue work, I can say I have seen thousands of animals in homes that are quite the opposite of that Rosy picture.
I wish you were 100% right, really I do. :(

Kenyi, I do rescue, I know the facts facing shelter dogs. I still support responsible breeders, after all, lets face it, not every need can be met in the shelter dog.
__________________
I also agree with that. I too support responsible breeders. Too bad there are so few of them compared to the NOT good breeders.
 
#25 · (Edited)
All you have to do is look up the many surveys and statistics about shelters and pet ownership, and pet birth and death rates, and do the math. Spay-USA, the ASPCA, and The National Council of Pet Population are good starts. And The APPMA records steady growth in both pet ownership an quality of pet care every year, and every other study shows decreasing shelter numbers. I know the AVMA's pet ownership survey book is available in my public library, so perhaps it is in other places as well.

Shelters are putting animals to sleep because of reasons other than 'not enough homes'. Not enough ADOPTIONS maybe, but those homes DO exist and they're increasing every year, but they are just not choosing the shelter to get their animal from. That is a separate issue from breeding, and it is solved by things other than punishing and demonizing breeders. Most people in the U.S. don't even get their pet from a breeder.

That's why I posted that news on the Ad Council's new study and ad campaign, which was largely ignored here. They did research and found out that the number one reason people don't adopt a pet is because many people have bad stereotypes about shelter animals. Their ads will directly challenge those misconceptions, and hopefully, raise adoption rates. That is a constructive strategy. Harping on breeding is not. An overbreeding problem existed in the 70s and 80s, but is largely gone now. 9 out of 10 of the top reasons cats and dogs end up in shelters has nothing to do with breeding. Why focus only on the reason that comes in LAST for dogs going to shelters (and almost last for cats)? Most animals sent to shelters are adults (1-2 years old on average), which shows they originally HAD a home that wanted them when they were born. What changed? People need to ask those questions.

We need to work on raising shelter adoptions from a new angle, and one that will actually affect the root of the current causes for pets being given to shelters. For example, here is the list of top 10 reasons why animals end up in shelters in L.A. Each shelter needs to look hard at their own lists, and see what can be done to address the reasons behind pet relinquishment in their own communities. Preemptive education programs that help people KEEP their pets in the first place seems like a good start. Some shelters are already doing that.

In my years of rescue work, I can say I have seen thousands of animals in homes that are quite the opposite of that Rosy picture.
Shelters can be sad places sometimes, it is true. But you have to understand, that they are only a small slice of reality, and not the whole picture. 160 million pets (and growing) in the U.S. do not end up in shelters. That number is so much bigger than the 8 million animals that end up in shelters/rescues (half of which die, you are right), that the fact just is that by working in a shelter, you aren't even seeing most of the animals that are owned in your community. For those thousands of pets you saw that needed help, tens of thousands were never seen because there was no need to save them.

You can't allow yourself to be swallowed up by despair and become blind to all the good things that are also happening with animals out there, that can be achieved if we just believe they're possible instead of giving up hope. There's no EVIDENCE that I've found anywhere that things are hopeless or getting worse for animals in this country. But we can't keep doing the same things over and over and expecting different results. If a strategy isn't working, the answer is to change it.
 
#35 ·
Shelters can be sad places sometimes, it is true. But you have to understand, that they are only a small slice of reality, and not the whole picture. 160 million pets (and growing) in the U.S. do not end up in shelters. That number is so much bigger than the 8 million animals that end up in shelters/rescues (half of which die, you are right), that the fact just is that by working in a shelter, you aren't even seeing most of the animals that are owned in your community. For those thousands of pets you saw that needed help, tens of thousands were never seen because there was no need to save them.

You can't allow yourself to be swallowed up by despair and become blind to all the good things that are also happening with animals out there, that can be achieved if we just believe they're possible instead of giving up hope. There's no EVIDENCE that I've found anywhere that things are hopeless or getting worse for animals in this country. But we can't keep doing the same things over and over and expecting different results. If a strategy isn't working, the answer is to change it.
I agree that things need to change and I am hardly swallowed up by despair. The thousands that I was referring to were the unlucky ones. They never made it to a shelter. The shelter which might not be happy was much much better then their fate. There are a lot of dogs in less then cheery homes out there or yards.

That said, I agree that THIS is not what this thread is about so, enough said.
 
#28 ·
Maybe we can circle back around to the original topic for a moment.

If you buy a pup from a pet store you are almost certainly supporting a puppy mill and encouraging them to continue.

Once you know better, you shouldn't do it again, but shame on anyone who tries to make you feel guilty after the fact. You should love and treasure that pet store dog for its entire life.

Arguments that ALL dogs should come from shelters seem silly to me and are irrelevant in this context.

BTW, I think if people had to buy those pups DIRECTLY from the puppy mills (instead of those mall pet stores) those mills would go out of business pretty quickly. They are not pretty or happy places.
 
#30 ·
Which part isn't true? A breeder, even a responsible one, doesn't have to breed that litter.
Of course not.

The world is pretty overcrowded with humans, too, and a lot of them are dying every day. Nobody HAS to have babies, drive cars or have Internet access.

Still, I would rather not leave the future of domestic canines in the hands of the oops breeders.

The argument for NO breeding reminds me of a religious sect, in early American history, that preached 100% celibacy. They became extinct.
 
#39 ·
The world is pretty overcrowded with humans, too, and a lot of them are dying every day. Nobody HAS to have babies, drive cars or have Internet access.
Indeed.
Still, I would rather not leave the future of domestic canines in the hands of the oops breeders.
I respect your position, I just disagree :) I am not, however, writing my state senator or congress about how we need to have spay/neuter laws. No. I also believe people have the right to do whatever they want with their own property (no matter how much I disagree, that's my final position :p)

Whoa now! Are you saying that people who adopt special needs babies are better than those that adopt neuro typical children?
:confused: I'm not sure how you got that out of my post. I was trying to point out the identical mindset people have when thinking about both human and canine adoption, how the gamble is more worth it to some than others.

This http://www.petpopulation.org/exploring.pdf is one of the links you posted, Pai. On the very first list, Top Ten reasons we give up our pets, under cats, take a look at number 1 and number 6. I think that supports my view of things.

It sounds to me like you like feeling morally superior to people who make different choices than you. Also, perhaps you believe that people having pets at all is something that shouldn't exist.
:confused: Again, not sure how you got that out of my post...
 
#37 ·
I understand that the possability of only responcible breeders exsisting is near impossable. My reason for my original post was pointing out that people shouldn't just stop breeding because there are dogs in shelters that need homes. Because if that would happen we wouldn't have any dogs left in a few years.
 
#38 · (Edited)
I think this thread has been thoroughly hijacked. I wish everyone on here could just agree that adopting from a shelter and buying from a responsible breeder are both responsible decisions. Personally, I've adopted every pet I've ever had, but that's my decision.

Anyway, back to the original topic.
As everyone else on here said, you bought a puppymill/BYB dog. Why would you do this?
Last week I purchased what I thought was a pure bred Coton de Tulear from a legitimate breeder. I read through some of the posts in this forum about good breeders, but all the criteria was a little too much for me to consider.
The criteria was a little too much for you to consider? The reason that criteria is there is for the protection of the dogs! Ignorance is a bad excuse, but in your case you don't even have that!
For shame.

You knew better and you did it anyway. You bought a dog that might end up sickly or maladjusted, you supported cruel and irresponsible people who will use that money to abuse more dogs, and you flushed 600 dollars down the toilette all in one move.

At least you made a vet appointment in advance, and I think this means you will probably take better care of your dog than some people. It's also a really good thing that you intend to neuter your dog.
I hope everything works out for you.
And I hope you never do this again.
 
#42 ·
Pai, perhaps you should actually read my posts. The first one says
The more shelters I visit, the more homeless animals I see, the more I feel that there is no such thing as a responsible dog breeder (just as I believe there's no such thing as a responsible cat breeder).
meaning that I've made up my mind about cat breeding, and I see dog breeding following the same route. To me, they're not very different issues. So I used the info you supplied point out why I feel as I do about the cat population.
When you're saying only shelter adoption is ethical and buying from a breeder is not, and then comparing it to adopting handicapped babies vs healthy babies, it sounds like you're saying people who don't want to adopt handicapped babies are being somehow selfish and comparing them to people who don't adopt shelter pets.
There's nothing in my posts about handicapped children :confused: It compared people having babies to people adopting babies. In my life I have found that some people have the same mindset in this situation as when they're deciding whether to buy or adopt a dog. I was not comparing the situations, I was comparing the mindset.
And yeah, I do think it's not ethical to buy a dog when there are many who need homes, not just in shelters either (craigslist, anyone?). But that's just my opinion. I'm not trying to force it on anyone, I'm merely stating what I believe.
But I think I've probably done enough talking on this thread, so I'm out :)
 
#43 · (Edited)
meaning that I've made up my mind about cat breeding, and I see dog breeding following the same route. To me, they're not very different issues. So I used the info you supplied point out why I feel as I do about the cat population/
You ignored the many links that show that your perspective of reality is not accurate, and then cherry picked the only stat that vaguely sounds like it already agrees with your preconcieved notion. If you don't believe that facts are something you should take into account before you form an opinion about something and accuse people of being unethical, then of course further discussion is pointless.
 
#44 · (Edited)
The answer to your question is Y E S.

As far as what none purebred dogs can or cannot do in comparison to mixed breeds I would point out the many exceptions to possibilities . As far as health screenings there should be no exceptions in my opinion..

As far as being ethical possibly we should all simply rid ourselfs as parisites to this planet.
 
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