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Buying from a breeder is not just as good as adopting form a shelter. A breeder, even a responsible one, doesn't have to breed that litter. They don't have to bring more pups into the world. But the shelter is dealing with dogs that are already born and homeless.
Also, each person's idea of a "responsible" breeder is different. The more shelters I visit, the more homeless animals I see, the more I feel that there is no such thing as a responsible dog breeder (just as I believe there's no such thing as a responsible cat breeder). But that is just my own opinion.
 

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Kenyi, I do rescue, I know the facts facing shelter dogs. I still support responsible breeders, after all, lets face it, not every need can be met in the shelter dog.
 

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Buying from a breeder is not just as good as adopting form a shelter. A breeder, even a responsible one, doesn't have to breed that litter. They don't have to bring more pups into the world. But the shelter is dealing with dogs that are already born and homeless.
They don't HAVE to do anything, they breed because they love their dogs and love the breed. And people love dogs and pets, and want to own one. There's nothing wrong with that. If nobody bred animals, pets would CEASE TO EXIST. It makes no sense to demand all dog and cat breeds go extinct, and that everyone be forced to ONLY get animals that were bred accidentally by irresponsible pet owners from shelters. We NEED responsible, quality animal breeders. There aren't enough animals in every shelter in the U.S. to even meet demand, anyway.

Forming you opinion based solely on the minority of animals that end up in shelters (8 million, half of which find homes), rather then the MAJORITY (160 million cats and dogs) that already have homes and are spoiled rotten, is completely illogical. You're focusing so hard on the bad that you can't see that shelters do not make up the most common reality of animals in this country.

Most animals end up in shelters because of owners not being able / or wanting to care for them anymore, not because 'too many animals are being bred'. The average age of an animal sent to a shelter is 1-2 years old, not newborns that nobody wanted. The average pet shop couldn't make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year charging $1-2k+ dollars a pup if there wasn't a constant, huge demand for puppies and pets every year. The shelter problem is caused by pet owners who can't handle behavior issues or can't afford to keep their animals. Look up any shelter demographic survey if you don't believe it.

There will always be animals who are homeless, or need help. Shelters can fulfill that role, and help them get rehomed. That's a valuable service. But they were never MEANT to become the only place to get a pet from. They are 'halfway houses' and animal rehabilitation centers. There will never be a time when shelters 'go out of business'. Demanding that have to happen before admitting responsible breeders have a right to exist is unrealistic.
 

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They don't HAVE to do anything, they breed because they love their dogs and love the breed. And people love dogs and pets, and want to own one. There's nothing wrong with that.

Forming you opinion based solely on the minority of animals that end up in shelters (8 million, half of which find homes), rather then the MAJORITY (160 million cats and dogs) that already have homes and are spoiled rotten, is completely illogical. You're focusing so hard on the bad that you can't see that shelters do not make up the most common reality of animals in this country.

Most animals end up in shelters because of owners not being able / or wanting to care for them anymore, not because 'too many animals are being bred'. The average age of an animal sent to a shelter is 1-2 years old, not newborns that nobody wanted. Pet shops couldn't make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year charging $1-2k+ dollars a pup if there wasn't a constant, huge demand for puppies and pets every year. Look up the facts before you form a blanket anti-breeder bias. The shelter problem is caused by pet owners who can't handle behavior issues or can't afford to keep their animals. Just look up any shelter demographic survey.
Hm, with all the years I spent in shelters I have to say, I do not agree with that at all. In many shelters the actual numbers are greater then half that are put to sleep. It IS because of over breeding in conjunction with irresponsible owners that do NOT commit to the proper care of the animal for it's life. Shelters like to candy coat things to keep the right image in the public. They have to in order to keep the much needed donations coming in. Many shelters work their butts off trying to save as many of the animals as they can but the truth is, there are not enough homes for the animals that are already there. At least not decent homes. As far as all the other dogs that are not in shelters having homes that spoil them, again, you are lucky to believe that. In my years of rescue work, I can say I have seen thousands of animals in homes that are quite the opposite of that Rosy picture.
I wish you were 100% right, really I do. :(

Kenyi, I do rescue, I know the facts facing shelter dogs. I still support responsible breeders, after all, lets face it, not every need can be met in the shelter dog.
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I also agree with that. I too support responsible breeders. Too bad there are so few of them compared to the NOT good breeders.
 

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All you have to do is look up the many surveys and statistics about shelters and pet ownership, and pet birth and death rates, and do the math. Spay-USA, the ASPCA, and The National Council of Pet Population are good starts. And The APPMA records steady growth in both pet ownership an quality of pet care every year, and every other study shows decreasing shelter numbers. I know the AVMA's pet ownership survey book is available in my public library, so perhaps it is in other places as well.

Shelters are putting animals to sleep because of reasons other than 'not enough homes'. Not enough ADOPTIONS maybe, but those homes DO exist and they're increasing every year, but they are just not choosing the shelter to get their animal from. That is a separate issue from breeding, and it is solved by things other than punishing and demonizing breeders. Most people in the U.S. don't even get their pet from a breeder.

That's why I posted that news on the Ad Council's new study and ad campaign, which was largely ignored here. They did research and found out that the number one reason people don't adopt a pet is because many people have bad stereotypes about shelter animals. Their ads will directly challenge those misconceptions, and hopefully, raise adoption rates. That is a constructive strategy. Harping on breeding is not. An overbreeding problem existed in the 70s and 80s, but is largely gone now. 9 out of 10 of the top reasons cats and dogs end up in shelters has nothing to do with breeding. Why focus only on the reason that comes in LAST for dogs going to shelters (and almost last for cats)? Most animals sent to shelters are adults (1-2 years old on average), which shows they originally HAD a home that wanted them when they were born. What changed? People need to ask those questions.

We need to work on raising shelter adoptions from a new angle, and one that will actually affect the root of the current causes for pets being given to shelters. For example, here is the list of top 10 reasons why animals end up in shelters in L.A. Each shelter needs to look hard at their own lists, and see what can be done to address the reasons behind pet relinquishment in their own communities. Preemptive education programs that help people KEEP their pets in the first place seems like a good start. Some shelters are already doing that.

In my years of rescue work, I can say I have seen thousands of animals in homes that are quite the opposite of that Rosy picture.
Shelters can be sad places sometimes, it is true. But you have to understand, that they are only a small slice of reality, and not the whole picture. 160 million pets (and growing) in the U.S. do not end up in shelters. That number is so much bigger than the 8 million animals that end up in shelters/rescues (half of which die, you are right), that the fact just is that by working in a shelter, you aren't even seeing most of the animals that are owned in your community. For those thousands of pets you saw that needed help, tens of thousands were never seen because there was no need to save them.

You can't allow yourself to be swallowed up by despair and become blind to all the good things that are also happening with animals out there, that can be achieved if we just believe they're possible instead of giving up hope. There's no EVIDENCE that I've found anywhere that things are hopeless or getting worse for animals in this country. But we can't keep doing the same things over and over and expecting different results. If a strategy isn't working, the answer is to change it.
 

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Buying from a breeder is not just as good as adopting form a shelter. A breeder, even a responsible one, doesn't have to breed that litter. They don't have to bring more pups into the world. But the shelter is dealing with dogs that are already born and homeless.
Also, each person's idea of a "responsible" breeder is different. The more shelters I visit, the more homeless animals I see, the more I feel that there is no such thing as a responsible dog breeder (just as I believe there's no such thing as a responsible cat breeder). But that is just my own opinion.
I'm sorry, but this just plain isn't true.

The people who were on my waiting list for Rittie's litter? Do not WANT a shelter dog. Not even a shelter collie. They want a collie with a health guarantee, predictable, superior temperament and health, and with a background where everything possible has been done to ensure that their puppy will be exceedingly happy and healthy in every way possible.

NONE of them were willing to 'settle' for a shelter dog or take the gamble with a shelter puppy. I'm not either.
 

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Why buy dogs when there is plenty to adopt. :) I just dont get it. When someone wants to adopt a human child, he/she does not "buy" a pure bred baby, right?
First of all, everyone is allowed to buy puppies. I have adopted dogs from shelters, older dogs from breeders and from a rescue; the dogs I've adopted were from age 7mos to 11years. I've also purchased puppies from breeders. There's nothing wrong with that.
Second, what the heck does your second sentence mean? If it's what I think it means, there sure are people who buy "pure bred babies", if you consider caucasian couples desiring a caucasian baby, african american, oriental, etc.

First of all, everyone is allowed to buy puppies. I have adopted dogs from shelters, older dogs from breeders and from a rescue; the dogs I've adopted were from age 7mos to 11years. I've also purchased puppies from breeders. There's nothing wrong with that.
Second, what the heck does your second sentence mean? If it's what I think it means, there sure are people who buy "pure bred babies", if you consider caucasian couples desiring a caucasian baby, african american, oriental, etc.
Quoting myself here...what I meant by buying babies is adoption, meaning it generally costs people money to adopt. Also, some people who can't conceive naturally choose to use invetro fertilization, which means they paid to get pregnant. If I offended anyone, it was not my intent
 

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Maybe we can circle back around to the original topic for a moment.

If you buy a pup from a pet store you are almost certainly supporting a puppy mill and encouraging them to continue.

Once you know better, you shouldn't do it again, but shame on anyone who tries to make you feel guilty after the fact. You should love and treasure that pet store dog for its entire life.

Arguments that ALL dogs should come from shelters seem silly to me and are irrelevant in this context.

BTW, I think if people had to buy those pups DIRECTLY from the puppy mills (instead of those mall pet stores) those mills would go out of business pretty quickly. They are not pretty or happy places.
 

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I'm sorry, but this just plain isn't true.

The people who were on my waiting list for Rittie's litter? Do not WANT a shelter dog. Not even a shelter collie. They want a collie with a health guarantee, predictable, superior temperament and health, and with a background where everything possible has been done to ensure that their puppy will be exceedingly happy and healthy in every way possible.

NONE of them were willing to 'settle' for a shelter dog or take the gamble with a shelter puppy. I'm not either.
Which part isn't true? A breeder, even a responsible one, doesn't have to breed that litter. They don't have to bring more pups into the world. Shelter are dealing with dogs that are already born and homeless. Each person's idea of a "responsible" breeder is different. Seems pretty true to me...
I know people with your exact same attitude, not towards adopting dogs, but instead towards adopting children from the foster care system. They don't want a child who's future health could be questionable, who's not predictable, and who has an unknown background. Yet there are still people who take the gamble on those kids. I know kids aren't the same as dogs, but there are definite parallels in the systems and in people's way of thinking.
No one said adopting a dog wasn't a gamble. I certainly didn't say it, because you're right, it is. But it's one that I was willing to take. I guess it just depends on what really matters to the individual person.

Ron, she didn't buy her pup from a pet store, she drove to the breeder's house to buy it.
 

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Which part isn't true? A breeder, even a responsible one, doesn't have to breed that litter.
Of course not.

The world is pretty overcrowded with humans, too, and a lot of them are dying every day. Nobody HAS to have babies, drive cars or have Internet access.

Still, I would rather not leave the future of domestic canines in the hands of the oops breeders.

The argument for NO breeding reminds me of a religious sect, in early American history, that preached 100% celibacy. They became extinct.
 

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Which part isn't true? A breeder, even a responsible one, doesn't have to breed that litter. They don't have to bring more pups into the world. Shelter are dealing with dogs that are already born and homeless. Each person's idea of a "responsible" breeder is different. Seems pretty true to me...
I know people with your exact same attitude, not towards adopting dogs, but instead towards adopting children from the foster care system. They don't want a child who's future health could be questionable, who's not predictable, and who has an unknown background. Yet there are still people who take the gamble on those kids. I know kids aren't the same as dogs, but there are definite parallels in the systems and in people's way of thinking.
No one said adopting a dog wasn't a gamble. I certainly didn't say it, because you're right, it is. But it's one that I was willing to take. I guess it just depends on what really matters to the individual person.

Ron, she didn't buy her pup from a pet store, she drove to the breeder's house to buy it.
The main thing a breeder has to meet to be considered "Responcible" is taking back puppies and dogs from people when/if the people can no longer care for them. If every breeder met this simple criteria there would be no need for shelters.
 

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I know people with your exact same attitude, not towards adopting dogs, but instead towards adopting children from the foster care system. They don't want a child who's future health could be questionable, who's not predictable, and who has an unknown background. Yet there are still people who take the gamble on those kids. I know kids aren't the same as dogs, but there are definite parallels in the systems and in people's way of thinking.
No one said adopting a dog wasn't a gamble. I certainly didn't say it, because you're right, it is. But it's one that I was willing to take. I guess it just depends on what really matters to the individual person.
Whoa now! Are you saying that people who adopt special needs babies are better than those that adopt neuro typical children? Are you then equating that with people who adopt from a shelter vs. buying from a breeder?

I just want to be sure I have your thinking correct.
 

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The main thing a breeder has to meet to be considered "Responcible" is taking back puppies and dogs from people when/if the people can no longer care for them. If every breeder met this simple criteria there would be no need for shelters.
That's not true. Most animal end up in shelters for behavioral or economic reasons. There will always be a need for shelters, as life is not perfect, animals get lost, etc. and there will always be a need for places to hold animals that are 'in-between addresses'.

Which part isn't true? A breeder, even a responsible one, doesn't have to breed that litter. They don't have to bring more pups into the world. Shelter are dealing with dogs that are already born and homeless.
I know people with your exact same attitude, not towards adopting dogs, but instead towards adopting children from the foster care system. They don't want a child who's future health could be questionable, who's not predictable, and who has an unknown background. Yet there are still people who take the gamble on those kids. I know kids aren't the same as dogs, but there are definite parallels in the systems and in people's way of thinking.
No one said adopting a dog wasn't a gamble. I certainly didn't say it, because you're right, it is. But it's one that I was willing to take. I guess it just depends on what really matters to the individual person.
It sounds to me like you like feeling morally superior to people who make different choices than you. Also, perhaps you believe that people having pets at all is something that shouldn't exist. Taking both your arguments to their logical end would lead to those conclusions, as is your ignoring the many links I've provided that show your opinion is far more extreme than is reasonable based on actual data about U.S. shelter animals and pet ownership.

The argument for NO breeding reminds me of a religious sect, in early American history, that preached 100% celibacy. They became extinct.
It's true, religious beliefs rarely have anything to do with facts.
 

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That's not true. Most animal end up in shelters for behavioral or economic reasons. There will always be a need for shelters, as life is not perfect, animals get lost, etc. and there will always be a need for places to hold animals that are 'in-between addresses'.
I've known breeders who've taken back dogs with behavioral problems and from people who had financial problems.
 

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Shelters can be sad places sometimes, it is true. But you have to understand, that they are only a small slice of reality, and not the whole picture. 160 million pets (and growing) in the U.S. do not end up in shelters. That number is so much bigger than the 8 million animals that end up in shelters/rescues (half of which die, you are right), that the fact just is that by working in a shelter, you aren't even seeing most of the animals that are owned in your community. For those thousands of pets you saw that needed help, tens of thousands were never seen because there was no need to save them.

You can't allow yourself to be swallowed up by despair and become blind to all the good things that are also happening with animals out there, that can be achieved if we just believe they're possible instead of giving up hope. There's no EVIDENCE that I've found anywhere that things are hopeless or getting worse for animals in this country. But we can't keep doing the same things over and over and expecting different results. If a strategy isn't working, the answer is to change it.
I agree that things need to change and I am hardly swallowed up by despair. The thousands that I was referring to were the unlucky ones. They never made it to a shelter. The shelter which might not be happy was much much better then their fate. There are a lot of dogs in less then cheery homes out there or yards.

That said, I agree that THIS is not what this thread is about so, enough said.
 

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I've known breeders who've taken back dogs with behavioral problems and from people who had financial problems.
Good breeders are not the only source of pets, and frankly, they never will be. It's impossible to legislate such a thing, even breeders can't agree on what standards make someone a bad breeder vs a good breeder. Every attempt at mandatory S/N laws have been failures because people who don't care about the law won't follow it. The same would happen with any law trying to impose 'ideal breeder' requirements on everyone.

Puppy mills exist because

1. There is not enough animal cruelty law enforcement
2. It's a million dollar business
3. The puppy industry is no different than factory farming in the eyes of the law.

BYBs exist because:

1. Show breeders cannot meet the demand for pets
2. As long as basic humane care is given, it's not illegal to breed animals
3. It's a million dollar business

Whereas you can theoretically end puppy mills in the U.S. (though I'd bet they'd just move to Mexico or Canada and export or smuggle pups), you cannot legislate 'reputable breeder standards' to every BYB. Only by educating the consumer to recognize them for the low-quality rip-offs they are can you stop the incentive for BYBs to breed. And we're nowhere near achieving that level of customer education right now.

Until we attain those lofty goals, we'll need animal shelters. It's just a fact. Nevermind in cases of things like hurricanes or earthquakes, where animal rescues and sanctuaries are basically Godsends that are needed to round up and treat animals until their owners can be found. My ideal would TOTALLY be for all breeders to be wonderful and responsible for their dogs for life. But like anything that involves people (i.e. everything), the system will never be perfect.
 

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I understand that the possability of only responcible breeders exsisting is near impossable. My reason for my original post was pointing out that people shouldn't just stop breeding because there are dogs in shelters that need homes. Because if that would happen we wouldn't have any dogs left in a few years.
 

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I think this thread has been thoroughly hijacked. I wish everyone on here could just agree that adopting from a shelter and buying from a responsible breeder are both responsible decisions. Personally, I've adopted every pet I've ever had, but that's my decision.

Anyway, back to the original topic.
As everyone else on here said, you bought a puppymill/BYB dog. Why would you do this?
Last week I purchased what I thought was a pure bred Coton de Tulear from a legitimate breeder. I read through some of the posts in this forum about good breeders, but all the criteria was a little too much for me to consider.
The criteria was a little too much for you to consider? The reason that criteria is there is for the protection of the dogs! Ignorance is a bad excuse, but in your case you don't even have that!
For shame.

You knew better and you did it anyway. You bought a dog that might end up sickly or maladjusted, you supported cruel and irresponsible people who will use that money to abuse more dogs, and you flushed 600 dollars down the toilette all in one move.

At least you made a vet appointment in advance, and I think this means you will probably take better care of your dog than some people. It's also a really good thing that you intend to neuter your dog.
I hope everything works out for you.
And I hope you never do this again.
 

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The world is pretty overcrowded with humans, too, and a lot of them are dying every day. Nobody HAS to have babies, drive cars or have Internet access.
Indeed.
Still, I would rather not leave the future of domestic canines in the hands of the oops breeders.
I respect your position, I just disagree :) I am not, however, writing my state senator or congress about how we need to have spay/neuter laws. No. I also believe people have the right to do whatever they want with their own property (no matter how much I disagree, that's my final position :p)

Whoa now! Are you saying that people who adopt special needs babies are better than those that adopt neuro typical children?
:confused: I'm not sure how you got that out of my post. I was trying to point out the identical mindset people have when thinking about both human and canine adoption, how the gamble is more worth it to some than others.

This http://www.petpopulation.org/exploring.pdf is one of the links you posted, Pai. On the very first list, Top Ten reasons we give up our pets, under cats, take a look at number 1 and number 6. I think that supports my view of things.

It sounds to me like you like feeling morally superior to people who make different choices than you. Also, perhaps you believe that people having pets at all is something that shouldn't exist.
:confused: Again, not sure how you got that out of my post...
 

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This http://www.petpopulation.org/exploring.pdf is one of the links you posted, Pai. On the very first list, Top Ten reasons we give up our pets, under cats, take a look at number 1 and number 6. I think that supports my view of things.
We're talking about dogs, not cats. The cat culture in this country is very different than the dog culture, not in the least because most people let their cats roam the neighborhood and because there are so many feral cats. Ending dog breeding because some people who give up cats to the shelter say they have too many doesn't make any sense.

I'm not sure how you got that out of my post. I was trying to point out the identical mindset people have when thinking about both human and canine adoption, how the gamble is more worth it to some than others.
When you're saying only shelter adoption is ethical and buying from a breeder is not, and then comparing it to adopting handicapped babies vs healthy babies, it sounds like you're saying people who don't want to adopt handicapped babies are being somehow selfish and comparing them to people who don't adopt shelter pets. Even if it was unintentional, that's what it sounded like.
 
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