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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I feel I have to pose this question, because I'm not seeing the opposite argument to what many of you feel about Back Yard Breeders and puppy mills.

Many people on this forum feel that the only way to receive a new dog is to...
a) Purchase one from a well renowned (expensive) breeder OR
b) Adopt one from a local shelter or rescue organization

I do understand your thoughts on BYB's and Puppy Mills- these people are out solely for the cash, and will breed dogs however and by whatever means in order to achieve that cash without the interest of the dogs in mind at all.

What I don't understand is what you think ignoring these bad breeders will ultimately do. Sure, in an ideal world NO ONE would buy from them, they wouldn't receive cash, and then the pet population would be reduced to healthy and happy dogs only. But this isn't the case at all. Someone is going to buy those puppies anyways. So why can't it be me? These dogs need a home to. They've already been born, and they clearly aren't being treated nicely by the so called breeders. Your message can't be spread to the entire universe, and so this will continue to happen.

I understand the argument entirely, but I don't understand why I receive 'dirty looks' and hateful words for saying I'm buying a puppy from a BYB. I'm not advocating what they do in the least. But I am taking a puppy away from the poor home they've been raised in. These puppies ARE living in awful conditions, I've been to a few 'BYB's' now and I see the depressing area they live in (despite the pretty words from the breeders to cover it up). If the dogs were in a simple home, then maybe ignoring them and not giving the breeder any cash would be an option, but this rarely seems the case.

THEY HAVE BEEN BORN- the deed is done... should these dogs suffer further just because their breeder wants cash? How does this make me a bad person?

It's easy to say that one should spend a lot of money on a dog from a trustworthy breeder because it will be with them for quite some time- but not everyone has a few thousand dollars to dish out on a new puppy.

I'm not here to argue with anyone, I just need to understand some thoughts on the topic. It's a vicious cycle, and I've learned its a taboo topic. But all dogs need a home. Let's talk this out, and maybe even find a simple solution for people looking for dogs like me.
 

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I understand what it is you are saying. The problem with that logic is... giving them money thinking If I don't someone else will, just makes you part of that problem. I am one of the people that thinks there are only 2 routes to go when looking for a dog. I will NOT support any unethical breeder. I have rescued many dogs and they were wonderful. I also have gone the breeder route. When I opted to get a dog from a breeder I did my research. I insisted on a puppy from health tested and certified parents. Hopefully that will pay off. I also wanted a pup from parents with show titles. My reasoning is that anyone can say their dog is a good example of the breed. Showing it and finishing it shows that judges also agreed that the dog/bitch was a good example of the breed. I wanted a pup from parents that had sound temperaments. This is very important in all breeds but especially mine. I think if less people make excuses for buying from backyard breeders then progress would be made. I also think if more people would do their research on their breed of choice and be willing to put in a bit of time educating themselves about good breeders of their breed of choice, they would find the good breeders are NOT more expensive. I have found several byb or less then ethical people breeding Rotties with huge price tags. Price is not the only determining factor of quality. Sadly a lot of people are fooled into thinking if they pay a lot, they get a lot. That can be the case but it is not always. Go to a few dog shows, talk to some breeders. Research, research, research. It will be well worth your efforts and you won't be part of the problem. IMO
 

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My feeling is IF everyone would stop buying from these breeders that they'd be put out of business in a matter of months. Yes the existing pups soul probably end up in rescues of shelters, but they'd most likely me batter off as they'd be placed in screened homes and sterilized so they couldn't be used to produce more dogs.

Btw, a good breeder isn't alwys more expensive than a BYB or puppymill, look at the thread wherevthe OP was charged 3000.00 for a dog with falsified documents, the same breed of dog from a reputable breeder that produces


excellent lines would have cost her half as much.

Also, renowned DOES NOT equal reputable. I know of breders with top dogs I'm the show world that I'd run FAR away from due to temperment issues.

Oh, sorry about the grammer and spellings, I'm on my iPhone and it has a mind of it's own about what Im trying to say.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I understand what it is you are saying. The problem with that logic is... giving them money thinking If I don't someone else will, just makes you part of that problem.
But do you really believe everyone else is as aware of this problem the same amount that I am? To be honest with you, up until a few months ago when I began searching for a new dog, I never even thought of BYB's and puppy mills. When you're searching for a new dog, a lot of people don't consider unethical breeders, or receiving an inbred, genetic unhealthy dog. Searching for a new dog is exciting, you see cute little pups at a good price and you take them without further thought.

I AM aware of the situation, but unfortunately most happy families wanting a new friends aren't. Such a dilemma.

EDIT

(And yes I do realize that a high price does not equal a good dog, I'm merely stating how so many people (including reputable breeders) claim that you won't find a good dog for under a thousand dollars (clearly a fallacy)).
 

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You already seem to have made your midn up that it's okay to purchase from a BYB because of price and easiness and 'everyone else does'. It's not.

This is why we educate people.
 

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Daniel now you can be part of the solution. Knowledge is power and that is a power worth sharing for the greater good. Nobody is born knowing all there is to know. We all learn as we go. The real problem for people is.... Once you KNOW, do you still go the easy route and help the byb line their pockets? Do you promote unethical treatment of animals for convenience sake? As I said, knowledge is power but sometimes, it makes our moral decisions a little harder. I do not believe for a second that everyone will run away from BYB or millers. There are many people in this world that don't give a rats butt about the parents of their dogs or the suffering of the millions of dogs in shelters across the country. I am NOT one of those people, are you? You sound like someone that wants to do right. The fact that you are here on a dog lovers forum puts you way out ahead of the "average Joe" for caring. There are people on this forum that might be able to help you find the dog of your dreams. What breed are you looking for? Hopefully we can hook you up with a good breeder or at least a path to start walking to find that good breeder. Then hopefully you will spend a lot of hours educating others of the problems in the dog world. :)
 

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Too me its like recycling

Not everyone in my neighborhood does it ....but I do.
Is my recycling going to put a stop the worlds pollution problem NO..... but I am also not contributing to the problem....its one small step in the right direction.

I see why people feel they want to "rescue" puppies from BYBs and Mills....but what about the next round of puppies that your money funded?...whats going to happen to them?....it a never ending cycle that will not stop until it becomes unprofitable for the mills/BYBs
 

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We may not be able to "spread our message to the entire universe," but we will try. If we all try to educate people, it WILL make a difference. The problem is, many people do not care. We can say all we want to these people and their mind is already made up (not saying the OP fits this, I do not know anything about his situation or dog search). So let's keep telling everyone we know about how nice it is to get dogs from reputable breeders and rescues. Every mind changed counts.
 

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Many people on this forum feel that the only way to receive a new dog is to...
a) Purchase one from a well renowned (expensive) breeder OR
b) Adopt one from a local shelter or rescue organization
There is also

c) Obtain a dog from someone rehoming their own

With the current economy the way it is, there are a TON of people giving up their dogs. In the age of the internet, it is very easy to come into contact with someone who is doing so. A local Craigslist page will yield a lot of dogs looking for homes. Many of them are puppies.


Back on topic now..
I just feel like with all of those options there is no need to get a dog from a BYB/puppymill. It's not as though we're dog-underpopulated and everyone's scrounging for the last pups. You may have to wait on a list to obtain a dog from a breeder, but if the person is dead set on a particular breeder/dog, it shouldn't be a problem. A member here has been waiting for her GSD pup for months now. Could she have taken the easy way out and gone to a run-of-the-mill breeder and gotten the pup instantly? Sure. But instead she chose to wait and thus get a better quality pup.

I understand what you're saying, the "I just couldn't leave them in that situation" argument. To some degree it is true that you are rescuing that one puppy. But I feel like the hundreds you shell out to the lowlife who bred the dog in the first place only perpetuates the cycle.

If a BYB is truly that bad, call Animal Control and let them handle the situation. Same thing for Pet Stores. A pet store here got put out of business not too long ago because they had some sort of violation, I'm not familiar with what it was. But if calls are made and people are contacted, steps will, many times, be taken to fix the problem. This is just IMO, but I feel that this way does NOT perpetuate the problem, while buying the dog does.
 

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Agreeing that reputable does not equal expensive. Reputable breeders only price the dogs $800 + because they spend SO much more on health tests and training their dogs to titles.

I, too, know just where you're coming from. When I go to the pet store and see a puppy in a cage, I think "it's really not fair, is it, that the poor pup has to suffer for this?" and feel a need to "rescue" him. Unfortunately, there are many, many other dogs ALSO in need of rescuing, and because we can't save them all, we should take the steps to try and prevent them from being there in the first place.

Shelters and breed rescues try to save dogs by taking in the ones that have been abandoned and need homes, or else they will be put down. Reputable breeders try to better the breed and the overall health and temperament of dogs, and make sure they go to good homes with responsible owners so sick, inbalanced dogs will not be so common as they are now.

Puppy mills and backyard breeders pump out puppies with money and stupid fantasies in their eyes. They don't try to do anything to help dogs in general and are basically the reason why there are so many unhealthy dogs and dogs without homes.

If you want to rescue a sad puppy, you can at the shelter or a rescue. They, too, deserve wonderful homes, and they will be killed if they don't have somewhere to go. What's more is that many unwanted puppies at pet stores are surrendered to shelters. Giving puppy mills and backyard breeders money may save one life, but it'll encourage them all to produce and ruin more and more dogs.

So these practices may not go away in the near future, but at least it's a start. It's kind of like if people decide to all drive to a place 2 minutes away thinking "well, the air's polluted anyway" (I'm sorry, can you think of a worse example?! >.< I just finished a paper on pollution... forgive me)

add: Pugmom, glad that I'm not going off the deep end and someone's thinking like me. Recycling, contributing to pollution... there is a similarity to puppy mills and byb!
 

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I'm not advocating what they do in the least. But I am taking a puppy away from the poor home they've been raised in.
The thing is, when you buy a puppy from a BYB/puppy mill situation, then you ARE advocating what they do. You have supported them, maybe not with spoken word, but financially. You have provided what they need to continue their practice and thus you have given them cause to continue. I know the point you're trying to make, but IMO people don't get to participate in something and then claim that they don't support it. You support it enough just by being there and encouraging their services.

Now if you truly want to end the suffering for these animals, your efforts would be better spent working with groups who are striving to close down mills, rescue the dogs, etc. REALLY rescue them, as in, a manner that doesn't benefit the breeder.

The bottom line is, you may think you are rescuing that one puppy - but are dozens that quickly fill it's place. And there are countless moms that are made to bare additional litters because thousands of people (be they misguided rescuers or flat out buyers) out there who put up the demand for quick puppies. You can't end it by buying that one puppy or saving that one puppy...you have to look at the big picture with these kinds of things.
 

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You already seem to have made your midn up that it's okay to purchase from a BYB because of price and easiness and 'everyone else does'. It's not.

This is why we educate people.
people here are always talking about positive training methods. how about educating people POSITIVELY? instead of being so negative about buying dogs from wherever. why not spend time saying positive things about rescuing and adopting? most of the time all i ever see is negative comments against anything that even might be back yard breeder related.

for example in the thread about someone getting a 'shichon'. posts come up with a negative vibe saying how its bad to get from a byb or store or whatever. how about taking that chance to say oh heres a place that shelters or rescues this and this type of dog that you might be interested in instead or for next time. dogs dont take well to negative training and people dont like to listen to people who are already condemning or basically calling them a 'problem' or trying to lecture them about how they just made the world a terrible place.
 

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There are also MANY so called legitimate breeders that are crap also! One that I know of that lives about an hour from me breeds Bernese dogs and they have a web site and are on a list of high standard dogs and I just found out recently that a woman that does Berner rescues are trying to shut down down this breeder.
Another woman that I know bought a Boxer from a so called good Breeder and she had to pick the pup up at the airport and the poor dog was shaking so bad and crusties all over his face from crying through the whole flight so the woman phoned the Breeder and all she said was " well I fly them all around the world" and never cared less. Needless to say the lady i know says she would drive a thousand miles next time so no pup she wants ever has to go through that again.
I'm sure there are many many more stories about bad breeders...
 

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I hate when people think they are rescuing a puppy from a BYB/mill/pet store. You are not. You are only causing more and more puppies to be bred in that situation. I am one person. Where I acquire my dogs from, will probably not make a difference in the BYB/mill market. But I am also making an example to all my family and friends who want to get a dog. Whenever I get the chance I educate people about the bad things associated with BYB/mills/pet stores. Will that put these things out of business? No, but it's a start. I do not condone BYBs/mills and my money with never get in their pockets again.
No, no animal deserves to suffer. The puppies cannot help where they are born, and they are no worse than dogs at shelters.But by "rescuing" these puppies, you are only causing more and more to suffer in the long run.
I don't believe in supporting something that will cause more suffering.

The recycling analogy was great by the way.
 

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There are also MANY so called legitimate breeders that are crap also! One that I know of that lives about an hour from me breeds Bernese dogs and they have a web site and are on a list of high standard dogs and I just found out recently that a woman that does Berner rescues are trying to shut down down this breeder.
Another woman that I know bought a Boxer from a so called good Breeder and she had to pick the pup up at the airport and the poor dog was shaking so bad and crusties all over his face from crying through the whole flight so the woman phoned the Breeder and all she said was " well I fly them all around the world" and never cared less. Needless to say the lady i know says she would drive a thousand miles next time so no pup she wants ever has to go through that again.
I'm sure there are many many more stories about bad breeders...
Who called these breeders "good" in the first place?

I think that's another problem, too.. so much is done by telling a person "I just got my Shichon puppy, they're the best breed ever, go to Jane Whatsherface, she's having another litter and you can get one too!!!!" and the person does absolutely no research, just knows that their friend got a cute new little puppy from, well.. somewhere.. and that they want one too. Not saying that's what happened in your instances but I'm sure that it's something that occurs.

There are many many ways to tell if a dog is coming from a good place. I don't feel like running through them all here but the biggest things for me are titles and health testing.

People need to do their research, no matter WHERE the dog comes from, and then a lot of problems will be avoided. Not just research as in talk to the breeder over the phone or walk into the shelter and tell yourself you're a great person for saving a life. Research by talking to other people, maybe online, friends, perhaps a vet or dog trainer. Something that I have seen more and more often is the "choosing a puppy" consultating that many trainers offer. I'm sure it can be very useful.
 

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I'm no where near being experenced with breeders, so I don't no how much you can take from what I have to say.

I don't like going to breeders, I'd rather rescue a dog/cat/ferret est than go the breeder route.

We wanted to get a puppy, and it needed to be a puppy so that I can get him/her used to the ferrets so that maybe one day I can trust puppy with ferrets. Anyways, I started looking at puppies. I didn't like any of the breeders until I found one in Sarnia. She has answered ANY question that I ask truthfully. The last batch of emails I sent to her were about breeders, and if she got her pups CKC registered as I found the "golden Rules" for a breeder.

She doesn't register the puppies, nor does she sell them as purebreds (or say anywhere on her site that they are). All her dogs are purebreds, but as she doesn't get them CKC'ed, she doesn't sell them as such. She even told me that in the eyes of the CKC, shes concidered a Back Yard Breeder, and yet she's better then a lot of the other breeders that I've seen, that DO CKC register are. She also told me that if people come looking for a registered pup, that she recommends them to two breeders she consideres good, and thats all because she doesn't like the others.

It's not the price of the pups that I like, its more of the fact that I know how much she does love her dogs, and she isn't doing this for "just the money" as a lot do, but she wants to give people quality healthy dogs that are family dogs, with good backgrounds, good temperments est..

I'm not saying that I agree with all BYB, or Puppy mills because I've seen what can happen in both cases. But not all BYB's are "bad"
 

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What breed is she breeding, out of curiosity? And what does she consider to be her "reason" for breeding the dogs? Does she health test?

I'm not trying to demonize her, I'm just being purely curious.
 

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people here are always talking about positive training methods. how about educating people POSITIVELY? instead of being so negative about buying dogs from wherever. why not spend time saying positive things about rescuing and adopting? most of the time all i ever see is negative comments against anything that even might be back yard breeder related.

for example in the thread about someone getting a 'shichon'. posts come up with a negative vibe saying how its bad to get from a byb or store or whatever. how about taking that chance to say oh heres a place that shelters or rescues this and this type of dog that you might be interested in instead or for next time. dogs dont take well to negative training and people dont like to listen to people who are already condemning or basically calling them a 'problem' or trying to lecture them about how they just made the world a terrible place.
That wasn't a very positive post ;)

But that's what happens when people touch on a topic that others feel passionately about.

There are also MANY so called legitimate breeders that are crap also! One that I know of that lives about an hour from me breeds Bernese dogs and they have a web site and are on a list of high standard dogs and I just found out recently that a woman that does Berner rescues are trying to shut down down this breeder.
Another woman that I know bought a Boxer from a so called good Breeder and she had to pick the pup up at the airport and the poor dog was shaking so bad and crusties all over his face from crying through the whole flight so the woman phoned the Breeder and all she said was " well I fly them all around the world" and never cared less. Needless to say the lady i know says she would drive a thousand miles next time so no pup she wants ever has to go through that again.
I'm sure there are many many more stories about bad breeders...
Well, in that case, we WOULDN'T call them reputable breeders. Breeding is not about having a fancy website. That's why experienced people here try to educate others and ask them to dive deeper. But I wholeheartedly agree - many people with fantastic, impressive websites can be the worst so-called "breeders" with disgusting practices.
 

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She breeds English Springers, and she doesn't health test, but they do go the the vet annually like most dogs do and get their shots, blood work done est..

She breeds them for family dogs, though most of their dogs are feld type, and a few of the adopters use them for duck retreaving(?)
 

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I don't think anyone believe that ignoring/not buying from those breeders will make them go away. Other people still purchase. If no one bought from them though, that would help. At least that is the theory. Anyway the point isn't that everyone is going to ignore them/not buy from them. It is that the individual who doesn't agree with them won't be the one supporting them. It works the same in anything else. If you don't agree with what they do, their ethics, ect then you're not going to support them. They don't donate $ to groups that they disagree with, they don't shop at stores that they don't agree with (there are different reasons why but I know people who won't shop at specific stores), they won't buy from a mill because they don't agree with how the dogs are kept/treated/breeding ethics, ect. So the real question is why would one put $ into a pocket that they disagree with. When it comes to dogs there is also the question of health, some would rather have higher chance of good health and a guarantee that might not be provided by a mill.

I'm not one who thinks
a) Purchase one from a well renowned (expensive) breeder OR
b) Adopt one from a local shelter or rescue organization


I'll gladly take a free dog from a good breeder, less then good/byb, previous owner, ect if it meets my criteria for what I need/want and pedigree that is decent or great. If I think it is horribly bred or don't like the individual dog then the breeder/previous owner couldn't pay me to take that dog.

THEY HAVE BEEN BORN- the deed is done... should these dogs suffer further just because their breeder wants cash? How does this make me a bad person?
It doesn't make you a bad person. I don't think dogs should suffer, that doesn't mean I'd financially support them. What about dogs from reputable breeders. They have already been born too. If people don't want to buy from them and want to encourage others not to I don't see how bad that is.

It's easy to say that one should spend a lot of money on a dog from a trustworthy breeder because it will be with them for quite some time- but not everyone has a few thousand dollars to dish out on a new puppy.
No one ever said to spend a lot of money. Of course not everyone has a few thousand dollars to dish out. Good thing pet quality pups from good breeders don't cost that much. So maybe if people were more informed that good breeders pups don't cost a lot they would go to good breeders?

I'm not here to argue with anyone, I just need to understand some thoughts on the topic. It's a vicious cycle, and I've learned its a taboo topic. But all dogs need a home. Let's talk this out, and maybe even find a simple solution for people looking for dogs like me.
I'm not saying I agree with the a and b, as mentioned above that is not the only way I've got a dog. However I'm not sure what is wrong with that simple solution?

If the breeder doesn't sell the pups and they go to the shelter to be adopted for $50 instead of $500, that is saving money right there for the buyer and giving a dog a home since all dogs deserve homes.
 
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