Puppy Forum and Dog Forums banner

Credence to pack theory?

2K views 20 replies 10 participants last post by  zimandtakandgrrandmimi 
#1 ·
Ok, I am confused, slightly. I think I kinda know the answer to this question, which I'll enumerate later for your judgment, but would like your takes on it.

Well, I've been reading a lot on this forum concerning mixed interpretations of Caesar Millan's methodology. He seems to be all about pack theory and as far as I can tell, Caesar's methods are very controversial. I have also read a fair amount of Dunbar, who seems to believe Caesar's methods aren't good at all and also seems to discount pack theory.

Yet, every dog breed article I read (about the different breeds I'm looking into), there is a perfunctory mention of the strength of each particular breed's pack mentality. Some seem more driven by this mentality than others. But it appears in almost every breed description on www.dogbreedinfo.com for example.

So I suspect there is a middle ground concerning pack theory. That yes, there is a pack tendency in dog behavior, but perhaps not so much as Caesar claims? And maybe not so little as some others claim?

Thoughts?
 
#7 ·
now are you talking just...

"Dogs tend to make social groupings with loose pack structure amidst their own species"...pack theory...

My vote here.

.or...



"To train your dog well you must be utterly dominate over him/her"...pack theory..


?

My "pack" pretty much housetrained the newest member of the family. I found her roaming near where I work, so had no idea of her history. No one claimed her, so she stayed. She only wet the floor twice (duh, yes, right in front of me), and was immediately shuttled outside with the other three dogs.

They taught her what "outside," and "be quick" means way faster than I could have.
 
#4 ·
I live with a dog pack and I'd have to say that I see pack mentality in these dogs every day. Not WOLF pack behavior, but DOG pack behavior. Racing greyhounds are raised on farms where they grow up with their litter and retain a lot of natural dog behaviors before starting their racing training at over a year old. They are socialized with humans and taught basic manners, but aren't ripped from their moms at 8-9 weeks old and dropped into a human environment. I think this has a tendency to make dogs neurotic...because they aren't humans. They're dogs. And have different needs than a human would.

A dog-dog relationship is different than a dog-human relationship and my role in our pack is not as another dog, it's as the human. Humans are lucky that dogs willingly accept a human leader into their life, provided that leader meets certain needs of each individual dog and the pack as a whole. It's that willingness to follow that comes from the pack mentality, IMO.
 
#5 ·
The pack instinct among dogs is real. However, selective breeding has altered canine social structure, and certain breeds have had their pack instincts tweaked more than others. Individuals within a breed can vary considerably. What this means is that over relying on a rigid theory of pack dynamics can cause as many problems as pretending it is a myth. Likewise "dominance theory".
 
#6 ·
I think there might be some confusion between Pack Theory and Pack Drive. Every dog has both Prey Drive and Pack Drive but, that varies by breed and individual dogs. Some dogs/breeds are independent and aloof (low in pack drive - high in prey drive) with other dogs and humans. Some are cuddlers and social butterflies.
These drives have nothing to do with the 'pecking order' of Pack Theory.
 
#9 ·
I do not REALLY get into dominance side but your dog MUST respect you and think of you higher then self. Dominance has a bad ring to us humans, you say I dominate my dog and people "See" dog cowarding under the table when you walk in the room. That, my friends, not dominance but fear!!! You do not want your dog to fear you but you want him to respect you and think of you as "Higher being". Does that mean you dominate your dog? You decide.

BTW: Cesar's dogs do NOT seem scared or fearful they rather LOVE him. If he is such evil why would that be so? But of cuz how many books there on bring up a child? ;)
 
#10 ·
You do not want your dog to fear you but you want him to respect you and think of you as "Higher being".

BTW: Cesar's dogs do NOT seem scared or fearful they rather LOVE him. If he is such evil why would that be so?
Re: respect, how does one know the internal thoughts of a dog? Still more, how does one derive a training protocol around those internal thoughts?

I'd also question how you determine "love" for the same reason by what you see on TV.
 
#16 ·
Loved the CP-ABC explanation, only problem were I attempt to explain that to my customers it would be a rough road. It's much easier on them and me to use a pack-leader explanation. I use a disclaimer telling them that it is just my way and wording that I use and not necessarily written in stone.
 
#17 ·
Its obvious one can not control environment (to a degree thought) but Behavior and Consequences can be controlled and guided gently pushing your dog towards where YOU think he needs to go. Why would he do it? I would think because he looks up to you, because you had been directing him all his life, because he respects and loves you, because you are his leader. What if environment changes to the situation dog never been to before? I would think you want the dog to "ask" you about the guidance - Sit, Heel, Lay, Wait, etc whatever it might be appropriate. Please, understand that i am not saying that dog must ask you for every little movement and action. NO NO! That is not what i mean. But in unfamiliar situation, i personally believe, dog needs to look at the handler for directions on actions. That is why its important to be there and provide your dog with that guidance or after a few times i would think that dog will figure that handler is no guidance to him and will take matters in his own paws.

That is what I think anyhow. :)
 
#18 ·
That is why its important to be there and provide your dog with that guidance or after a few times i would think that dog will figure that handler is no guidance to him and will take matters in his own paws.
I think the point I would make is that it's not necessary to evoke pack theory to make this happen. It's not as if the dog has a choice in how we are to be responsible owners. But we seem to often blame the dog when we lose sense of that responsibility, and I don't think we should question the dog's nature in doing so.

Yes, some environments are more challenging than others and they can be difficult to control. My approach to that environment is no different if it were less challenging. I'm still manipulating the antecedent the best I can, and the consequence the best I can. In the end, I want the dog to choose a behavior that benefits both him and I. If he chosen one that benefits only him, it is my responsibility as his owner to restrain the dog for his safety and mine. The decision of leadership is not in question here, it is a responsibility. It is not necessary to think pack structure for this to be true.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top