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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Ron closed the thread and suggested starting a new one. Here goes.

The antecedent thread dealt with creating the perfect guard/nanny dog and most people seemed to think existing breeds did a pretty good job of filling that niche.

While I don't want to create a NEW breed, I've often thought it would be good to tweak an existing breed. It would be good to bring in some outside genes to help the pug get its nose back. I hope something like the puggle people eventually settles down to become a real breed. I pity double coated breeds who live in hot climates, and wouldn't mind seeing the Labrador re-worked a bit to reduce shedding and make them more heat-hearty. (The kelpie-Labrador cross is pretty common in Australia, and they're often great dogs . . . were much favored by the Australian military in Vietnam).

There have been new breeds created . . . the rat terrier, for one. The dogo for another. Oh yes, and wasn't the Boston terrier created a bit over a century ago by mixing breeds? Mary Roslyn Williams describes how the Labrador has been tweaked in the past by introducing hound blood (including grehhound) to produce dogs who were faster and better at going over fences in field competition (she HATED it).

I'm too old to attempt such a venture myself . . . and too timid. But dogs should evolve with the times. I think it's a shame that so much of the evolution taking place has been done by show breeders, and often takes the direction of exaggerating specific features beyond the point of being healthy.
 

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Imo there's definitely room for new breeds. Some breeds will die out as time goes on (some are close to it already) and new ones will be created. Klee Kai, Silken, Miniature American Shepherd.... There are a lot of newer breeds out there.

Personally my ideal dog doesn't exist as a breed and it'd be awesome if someone wanted to create it. I actually know quite a few people with similar wants and I think there'd be a market. I just don't have the time or money or desire to do so myself. But it could definitely be done.
 

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I've got no problem with people creating new breeds as long as they do so responsibly -- carefully choosing stock, keeping careful records, health testing out the wazoo, and breeding for a purpose (and yeah, companionship is a valid purpose).

I wish the AKK had been worked on a bit more before the stud book was closed. The breed still has temperament issues, which isn't great for a companion breed. There are also a few horrible breeders now selling their pups to mills, so the breed could be ruined before ever being really established. Those same breeders are not breeding with health and structure in mind, so I'm seeing some "ugly" AKK around lately.
 

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the only thing I would of added to the other thread is CO's and LGD are suppose to be naturally child friendly and protective dogs. and they are highly devoted to their owners and families.. so attacking their owners and family's or a child would be un natural not a breeding prospect... or a highly mishandled individual dog..
 

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I would actually not mind to see the Puggle become a real breed to help pugs breathe easier, it's one of the crosses I don't mind so much either :D plus can I just say they are really adorable
 

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I once read about a breeding program that bred dalmatians to pointers and then back to dalmatians to create healthier lines. That's something I could get behind for sure, for MANY breeds out there.
 

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Our first dog was a rescue dog and a mutt but we knew she had a lot of golden retriever in her along with some border collie and who knows what else. When getting ready for our newest dog I knew I wanted a mixed breed but also knew I wanted it to be at least half GR. It is nearly impossible to find a GR mix in the shelters as they get picked up so quickly and wanting a puppy made that venture even more difficult.

I found a gal who has been breeding "coltrievers" for over 15 years. I checked her out well, visited her farm on 3 different occasions and was impressed with what I saw. I am absolutely thrilled with my puppy and know she is the right mix for our family. I have no problem with people mixing breeds to come up with a hybrid dog as long as they are doing it responsibly and there is a market for the dog. There will always be breeders who don't do things right but I don't understand why some people have such strong negative opinions for the "hybrid" dog.
 

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Generally attempt to ignore these subjects, but Puggles along with Pomskies until someone weeds out all the sickly ones should never be a breed, swear I see these mixes with some issue or other endlessly.

I think it's a shame that so much of the evolution taking place has been done by show breeders, and often takes the direction of exaggerating specific features beyond the point of being healthy. 20 to 50 years ago this was a real argument, today you have a bigger problem in someone breeding a AB and a DDB and calling it a APBT and half the world believing it. The AM is the perfect example of why there actually needs to be stricter standards put in place. Sorry just see way more damage being done across the board by byb and so called designer breeders.

I once read about a breeding program that bred dalmatians to pointers and then back to dalmatians to create healthier lines. That's something I could get behind for sure, for MANY breeds out there.
Not being rude, but then why has it not worked or lasted since it has been done with SO many breeds between the 1940's and 1990's? Yes in some cases it did help the breeds, but these where multi generations of doing it and not a simple outcrossing.
 

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The specific line that I was talking about was just accepted for registration by the akc in 2011.

http://www.dalmatianheritage.com/about/index.htm

Edit: I'm not saying it works all the time but if more breeders made concerted efforts to improve lines in this way the akc might be more open to this type of thing and also breeds would be better off. I'm not a fan of breed mixes like doodles in general.
 

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I'd like to see a breed that is "the perfect family dog" in medium to small size and comes in a non shedding variety. So, I guess kinda like Golden/Labradoodles.. except smaller, less energy and bred with better temperaments in mind. Kid/People/Dog friendly, tolerant, non reactive, biddable, on the softer side (but not too soft), good off leash and overall a sturdy dog. Oh and prettier colors. Throw some Collie in there maybe? I don't want one.. but I know lots of people that do.

I have no issues with the mixed breed thing as long as done responsibly. The honesty is seriously lacking and the greed is ridiculous. I'm not okay with churning out Pomskies that look nothing like mini huskies until a couple of them do. I'm not okay with so many people never being informed that they actually have to BRUSH a dog with poodle type hair. I'm not okay with any breeder who lets just anyone have a puppy and give them no true info on the breed(s) they are giving them..
 

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. I'm not okay with so many people never being informed that they actually have to BRUSH a dog with poodle type hair. I'm not okay with any breeder who lets just anyone have a puppy and give them no true info on the breed(s) they are giving them..
A good friend of mine owns a grooming shop and she actually has to charge differently for doodles because the condition of their coats are so inconsistent and largely uncared for. Our town is rampant with them and people do not take care of their hair. We have a wall of shaved mats in the back room to show people how bad it can get. It makes me sad.
 

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The hardest part creating a new breed is the "responsible" part, because you are going to have a LOT of failures, and they need to be dealt with. That means culling ruthlessly, which may sometimes involve euthanasia (may, not absolutely will). You have to place everything that is not what you want/need, and you can guarantee absolutely nothing, because what you still have is a mutt with unpredictable traits.

Creating a new breed realistically requires a lot of stock, a lot of time, and many many homes,

I am not averse to new breeds, or purpose bred crosses. But most people like to think an F1 cross is a new breed...and it most certainly is not. And they don't take the steps to actually create a REAL breed
 

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I have no issues with the mixed breed thing as long as done responsibly. The honesty is seriously lacking and the greed is ridiculous. I'm not okay with churning out Pomskies that look nothing like mini huskies until a couple of them do. I'm not okay with so many people never being informed that they actually have to BRUSH a dog with poodle type hair. I'm not okay with any breeder who lets just anyone have a puppy and give them no true info on the breed(s) they are giving them..
Yup yup. Not very informed on any mixes or branch breeds beyond Miniature American Shepherds/mini and toy "Aussies", but I've seen SO much dishonesty that comes along with it. For one being that so many of those breeding them still refer to them as Mini/Toy Aussies to the public without any mention that it's not a recognized breed under that name. Insist that there isn't mixing of breeds to produce such small dogs and it's purely breeding smaller Aussies to smaller Aussies. Personally, I'm not a fan of intentionally downsizing breeds without any real reason to in the first place, but I'd get over that if there was more transparency and less, like you said, greed.
 

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Pomskies are not a real breed. As far as I know, they're not working toward creating an actual breed, just breeding Sibes to poms for money. I looked into all of the breeders endorsed by the "Pomsky Club of America" and saw no mention of health testing, no breeding of the second generation, and the same few out-of-standard pom studs used by several breeders. The pups are also being sold for upwards of $2000, which is ridiculous.

I'm okay with some mixes as long as they're being bred responsibly (which pomskies are not), but there is a difference between breeding crosses forever and actually working to create a new breed.
 

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If they're health testing all breeding stock for issues in the parent breeds, and have a reason/goal to work toward other than 'cute puppies!!' I don't have a problem with it.

It would take more than one person though obviously. You would need a group of like minded people, you wouldn't have enough dogs to move forward with otherwise.

A recreation of an extinct breed would be interesting to see as well (i.e English White Terrier or Clydesdale/Paisley Terrier)
 

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I'd love to see pugs with a muzzle.
 

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I'd love to see pugs with a muzzle.
just going on this topic

isn't there Pugs already out there in the gene pool that have further extended muzzles to start a breeding focused breeding program with.... I'm sure there are tons of pugs that do have more extened muzzles, that are discarded from not being paired in flat nose breeding programs because they not flat muzzled.. I don't think you have to go out of the breed to make changes in a breed.......
 

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A closed gene pool is not sustainable in the long term. For some breeds it may take a few hundred years, for some breeds sooner, but eventually any closed gene pool will peter out. Basic genetics.
 

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I think there would be a solid market for "mini goldens", judging by the reaction to Kabota from the general public. People stop me all the time asking what he is, where did I get him, how can they get one, etc. Some people are beyond disappointed when I tell them he's a rescue mutt of unknown heritage. How you would get there, though ... I'm not sure what you'd have to breed to a golden to get a dog that looks more golden than Kabota does, but with the same phlegmatic temperament, and you'd have to at least tone down his prey drive to produce a truly great family dog. You'd also have to harden up his temperament, because he's just too soft to be owned by the average person, who will occasionally yell at the dog, jerk a collar, etc.

The problem to me is always going to be the how. Always. What about the failures? How many innocent dogs will suffer? That can't be ignored.
 

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I think there would be a solid market for "mini goldens", judging by the reaction to Kabota from the general public. People stop me all the time asking what he is, where did I get him, how can they get one, etc. Some people are beyond disappointed when I tell them he's a rescue mutt of unknown heritage. How you would get there, though ... I'm not sure what you'd have to breed to a golden to get a dog that looks more golden than Kabota does, but with the same phlegmatic temperament, and you'd have to at least tone down his prey drive to produce a truly great family dog. You'd also have to harden up his temperament, because he's just too soft to be owned by the average person, who will occasionally yell at the dog, jerk a collar, etc.

The problem to me is always going to be the how. Always. What about the failures? How many innocent dogs will suffer? That can't be ignored.
I found a breeder that breeds mini goldens. Now as far as health goes. I couldn't tell you, as I didn't stay at the site long, but they are out there. Now to just do it properly.

But I agree with the market being out there. I know several people, who love goldens but don't want 80lb dogs.
 
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