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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
This popped up as a share on Denise Fenzi's Face Book page/wall as a fully public post. ( https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...eJTvoPv8R9xSxUYfjMwvR4kU1l&id=100000666150032 )

The Chromatic teaching guide developed by CB Wing to describe dog training technique
as opposed to the typical monikers of "purely positive" or "balanced trainer" etc.

This color range chart is interesting. Ms. Fenzi describes herself as mostly yellow.

I am mostly in the green range.
Depending on the dog and the circumstance all the ranges have value.

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Interesting breakdown! I'm sure you could split most of these up further, but it's definitely a solid overview. I'm in the yellow category mostly, but I strive to be as orange as possible, largely because I feel like most of my need for non reward markers comes from inexperience/lack of clarity on my end. When I'm able to set up the training environment to minimize environmental confusion/distractions (at least ones that we haven't proofed yet) and focus on my own verbal and non-verbal communication being really clear and consistent, I see a massive decrease in mistakes and frustration from my boys.

I'm a messy, disorganized trainer most of the time, though. And probably always will be. It's one of the reasons I love taking classes, because it enforces a degree of structure I struggle creating on my own. So I try to be kind to myself when I feel like I'm not where I want to be yet!
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
@DaySleepers I was a little concerned about sharing this and forum rules but I gave credit to the author and where I got it from and that is was shared "publicly."

CB Wing is a School Teacher as well as a dog trainer.

I thought the chart was so much better and far more clear than the age old discussion of quadrants which can be confusing just by how they are named.

I spend most of my time in "orange" but because I will use corrections I end up in Green.

Being clear with your dog is the biggest challenge. We all are messy at times and the dog's response tells us this!
 

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Yes, generally speaking resources that are publicly available for free are fine to share! Especially for active members who are clearly not trying to spam or advertise, haha - we do have to be suspicious of brand new accounts who do nothing but post links. Giving credit to the original author is always good form, and much appreciated.

It's definitely clearer than quadrants or using vague terms that have different meanings to different people, like "balanced" and "force free". Those terms can be useful shorthand, but fall apart when people try to make broad generalizations about particular training styles/philosophies, and don't always tell you what a specific trainer actually uses/promotes in their practice.

I guess philosophically I'm technically green, since I'm not fully opposed to using corrections or corrective tools if I'm in a situation where less invasive methods have failed and I feel it's necessary for safety reasons or quality of life, but my dogs haven't needed me to go there yet. So my actual applied training is solidly in the 'warm' end of the spectrum.
 
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This is the original FB post, which is what Denise shared. Iniciar sesión en Facebook Another graphic, that is more of a continuum, rather than set color blocks, has been added.
 
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Well, I'm going to voice the same concerns brought up in the FB comments:

1. The color spectrum is, intentionally or unintentionally, biased. Using red, orange and yellow for positive based training preference is giving off subliminal "warning", " danger", "caution" signals and is suggesting negative, emotional and knee-jerk reactionism. While using green, blue and purple for the other end is suggesting calm, mature and thought out processes.

2. The rising of the chart as it moves towards the purple is also indicating a bias towards the purple end.

3. The use of "purely positive" for the red end, while avoiding terms like "aversive", etc at the purple end, is again biased. It is stressing training method limitations used at the red end while evading the extreme training methods used at the purple end.

4. The descriptors are misleading and biased. They suggest that those towards the red end train using only one method (giving treats) for all dogs in all circumstances while those towards the purple end are "training the dog in front of them" and are more willing to adjust their methods. That suggestion is completely untrue as there are trainers on the purple end use one method (punishment) for all dogs in all circumstances while there are trainers on the red end who will adjust their methods for a specific dog in a specific circumstance.

5. While the paragraph below the spectrum indicates that the color you identify with is based on the tools you use, no where does it really indicate what tools fit with what color. Instead it clumps all tools (clickers, flat collars, harnesses, prong collars, e-collars, leashes, etc) together as if they are all equal. The only tool it singles out is treat rewarding. And that is done in a biased manner (see points above).

6. It fails to incorporate all the other aspects of training such as counter conditioning, resolving issues underlying unwanted/inappropriate behaviors,, setting up for success, praise, etc.

In the end, I think it is a passive aggressive justification for those who consider themselves in the green and blue sections. It dismisses those n the yellow to red sections as emotional, limited, and less than desirable. While it singles out the purple as purely negative, it puts all other corrections and punishments in the "good" green and blue sections. And, just like the term "balanced trainer", it suggests that using aversive tools like prong collars and e-collars is good as long as you also reward good behavior regardless of how much of either you actually utilize on a regular basis.
 

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The thought of negative being attached to the particular color never occurred to me. What did occur is saying to someone, "I'm a yellow trainer," or "I'm a blue trainer," or "I'm a green trainer." I don't think you'd get instant understanding. In fact you might get someone who acts like they understand who really thinks you're cowardly, depressed, or well, green. However, I'm one who always thought I was a balanced trainer, until I joined a forum named balanced training, and found 95% of the posts were about e-collars and prongs. Whoops.

So I suspect there is no label that works well out in the world. One probably has to describe in enough detail to get the idea across. I do agree that doing that describing without getting into quadrants is a good idea.

Also, except for trainers letting prospective customers know their approach, I'm not sure what value there is in labeling your methods anyway. In the years I've been in classes, training groups, and competitions I can't remember anyone using that kind of label. The talk tends to go more to "This is how I get my dog to __." Or maybe "I don't like to do that; I do it this way."
 

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I agree with that.

For me, when I'm looking for a trainer, I'm simply looking for one who won't use tools or methods I don't approve of on my dogs. I don't care what label they use to describe themselves.

I do think the current labels, as well as this "color guide", are used to misguide or insult. As you mention, calling yourself a "balanced trainer" means nothing except that you use aversive tools and methods to some extent. But a potential client can't know how much or how little those tools/methods are used or in what situations by that label. So calling oneself "balanced" provides no clue. Do you use corrections as often as praise/rewards? Do you use more than basic leash corrections? Do you put prong collars on every dog and puppy? Do you string up a dog by its leash ala cesar milan?

And "positive only" is used more by the "balanced trainers" as a derogatory term than it is used by trainers who employ positive based training methods.

And then there are those who purposely try to muddy up the waters by redefining terms to fit their narrative.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Good grief.

There seem to be those here who feel such animosity toward anything I post they simply tear down with negativity.

Here's a novel idea.. instead of tearing this apart based on your feelings do something constructive.

Change it. Make it better. Do your own and post it.


FYI: Red-orange-yellow-blue-green-violet is the visible light spectrum. That's all it is! Nothing more!

The chart has a slope to allow for the graphic designer to put the verbage in the lower right hand corner.

Make your own color chart if you don't like this one. Reverse the Spectrum. Change the slope. Use different words.
It's an idea. It's just dog training. It was shared on FB by Denise Fenzi, a dog trainer frequently linked on this forum. The chart was authored by someone Denise Fenzi apparently follows.

That's all it is.
 

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It's always better not to find insult where none was intended. From what I know of Denise Fenzi, she wouldn't be one to denigrate positive training. I bet she also doesn't much care about people who think their way is better than hers.
 

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You posted this for opinions/feedback/comments. I offered mine. And what I said was in line with many of the comments that were posted on FB about it.

It has nothing to do with you.

I have no desire to make changes to it. It's not mine to do so. I do not see any purpose in doing so. If the creaters want to make changes based on feedback, then they can do so. You posted it for comments and I offered mine. You can like or not like, agree with or not agree with, consider or ignore them. It doesn't really matter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
It's always better not to find insult where none was intended. From what I know of Denise Fenzi, she wouldn't be one to denigrate positive training. I bet she also doesn't much care about people who think their way is better than hers.
Denise Fenzi makes quite a lot of $$$$ selling her online courses. She has a method/formula that (apparently) appeals to a broad base of subscribers. She has no need to care about someone stating "but my way is better."
 

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I looked at it and thought of rainbows, something I associate with good things.

I don't know where I would be. I guess it depends on the situation. I physically restrain her from chasing cars and don't intend to stop. Health and safety first. To some people, that would make me green. I guess I'm probably yellow, because I use 'no' in addition to 'good girl'.

Tonight I started requiring Ruby to sit without a treat. She knows it well and I don't want to have a fanny pack of cookies in perpetuity, for multiple reasons. The purple people seem mean though; every dog should get biscuits and/or praise sometimes!
 

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Here's the revised chart from the link LeoRose posted, taking into account many of the concerns Toedtoes mentioned:

Product Organism Lighting Font Material property


Including removing mentions of "purely positive" and adding more clarity to both extremes. It even now explicitly calls out that individual dogs may use different color ranges, and that this is about which color you primarily identify with, leaving room for everyone to have flexibility and the ability to "train the dog in front of them". I think it's unfair to assume the author was intentionally trying to malign positive training methods given how receptive they were to suggestions for improvement.

But honestly, there's no easy chart that's going to cover every nuace and circumstance in dog training, and expecting this one to do so is unrealistic. Its point is to illustrate the range of philosophies and approaches in dog training, and the color spectrum was used to indicate that most of us are going to be a blend of approaches, not in the extreme camps some of the training discourse likes to default to. It also doesn't appear to be meant to address behavior modification (by which I mean here addressing the dog's emotional state) at all, just broad approaches to training simple behaviors, so I personally find it acceptable that it doesn't try to shoehorn in processes like CC and DS.

I do confess that if I saw dog trainers going around saying "I'm a blue! I'm a yellow!" I'd think it was that color personality test that's popular in business guru/self help spheres at first!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Here's the revised chart from the link LeoRose posted, taking into account many of the concerns Toedtoes mentioned:

View attachment 266829

Including removing mentions of "purely positive" and adding more clarity to both extremes. It even now explicitly calls out that individual dogs may use different color ranges, and that this is about which color you primarily identify with, leaving room for everyone to have flexibility and the ability to "train the dog in front of them". I think it's unfair to assume the author was intentionally trying to malign positive training methods given how receptive they were to suggestions for improvement.

But honestly, there's no easy chart that's going to cover every nuace and circumstance in dog training, and expecting this one to do so is unrealistic. Its point is to illustrate the range of philosophies and approaches in dog training, and the color spectrum was used to indicate that most of us are going to be a blend of approaches, not in the extreme camps some of the training discourse likes to default to. It also doesn't appear to be meant to address behavior modification (by which I mean here addressing the dog's emotional state) at all, just broad approaches to training simple behaviors, so I personally find it acceptable that it doesn't try to shoehorn in processes like CC and DS.

I do confess that if I saw dog trainers going around saying "I'm a blue! I'm a yellow!" I'd think it was that color personality test that's popular in business guru/self help spheres at first!
What a positive post. Thank you.

The chart author was open to suggestions for change.

Dog trainers should be just as open to change.

What bothered me about a couple of the responses was the complete negativity.. finding nothing much good to say. I think it's a common internet/social media behavior and I dislike it much. I have been guilty of it as well. I work NOT to be and try to catch myself when I do.

Perhaps trying to start what you have to say with "while it is obvious a good effort was made here, I have some issues.." then proceed to point out the good first and then the not so good (or the other way around).
 

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The revised chart is much less accessible visually. They need to lighten the colours up.

I also wanted to comment on the colour red, etc. Here's an article on how colour affects performance. It's dated, but people still study this and other aspects of colours' effect on people. Colors may affect performance, study suggests (Published 2009)
While it is obvious a good effort was made to post relevant information here, I have some issues.

First, the not so good. I can't read the article because it is behind a pay wall.

I can't tell you the good because I can't read the article.
 

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Very odd. I'm not a subscriber and aren't even in the US. I could read it just fine.

Here are some other links, some more authoritative than others. Hopefully one of them will work for you. They are all free, found using a simple internet search. I excluded databases, because most people then couldn't read what I found.

If they do not, just look up 'color psychology' in the search engine or database of your choice. Spoiler: red isn't bad, just different.








Red vs. green: Does the exam booklet color matter in higher education summative evaluations? Not likely - Psychonomic Bulletin & Review





 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
My favorite color is a blue sky, light wind, a few grey clouds, dew points in the 50's or less and a rural view (from the reds and browns of desert to the greens and blues of the mountains) and temperatures in the 60's.... and NO PEOPLE! HaHa!

I studied light physics as part of my degree in Geography/Remote sensing/photogrammetry degree. Used it in optical geology too.

Light is photons.. which can behave like both energy and matter. That's a difficult concept the more you study it.

All I saw with the Chromatic Chart was a representation of the visible light spectrum (a very tiny part of the light spectrum). I thought it was kind of pretty and I liked the blurring (a very real thing in that spectrum) allowing the observer to understand the edges between methodologies are not finite.

I bet if it were reversed fault would still be found with what color represented each "sector" especially if you don't like the color of your main method. I bet if it were all shades of grey or even pink or blue fault would still be found.

"But my chosen method is too (dark/light/lacking SOMETHING" and so the originator is being passive aggressive against that method.... "

Instead of a linear representation perhaps a CIRCLE would have been better? Then training with no food rewards would be next to training with only food rewards..... :rolleyes:
 
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