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Snuggles, if you PM me with what area you live in I will help you look for a dog, I have some contacts at rescues who might be able to help.
 

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yeah, petfinder is loaded with small breeds and small breed mixes. I just saw a really cute little shih Tzu puppy. If I were in the market I would snatch her up. You will be shocked at how many are out there in need of a home if you have not already checked it out.
No kidding! Just for fun I searched "poodle" on Petfinder...Geez I can't believe how many poodle mixes I found, puppies, too!
 

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I don't claim that every breeder of purebred animals is automatically responsible. Please notice I keep saying "hobby" breeder. A "hobby" breeder is typically someone who has an active interest in the dog fancy, whether through conformation or performance events, who breeds their dog to the standard of at least one legitimate registry, who typically health tests and competes with their registered dogs. Not every hobby breeder is a responsible breeder, but they comprise a good portion of those breeders.

However, yes, I would typify anyone who breeds mixed breed dogs to make a profit as being irresponsible. I have no use for so-called "cockapoos," "labradoodles," or "border jacks" or any of their ilk. It used to be that cockapoos were given away by the people who had "oops" litters. Labradoodles were bred for a time in Australia in an effort to produce hypoallergenic guide and service dogs. The experiment was acknowledged as a failure, since the dogs did not breed true for coat or ability, yet many people still use this experiment to legitimize the "labradoodle." I have utterly no use for "border jacks:" dogs that are produced by breeding border collies and Jack Russell terriers together to create a "super" agility and flyball dog. I wonder what happens to those mixes that are not super performance dogs--what homes do they end up in and how quickly are they abandoned in shelters when they prove to have too much drive for the average owner? I don't care so much about lurchers and farm collies as long as they are used on farms to perform the jobs for which they were purportedly bred.
I realize you said hobby breeder and I'm familiar with the term, my point was that you equated responsibility with the breed/type of dog being bred and I disagree with it. There are hobby and show breeders who are not responsible so it's hardly the sole requirement.

Now, you may not personally have a use for doodles and puggles or whatever, but like it or not there is a market for it. People like and want these dogs whether you approve of them or not and despite your preferences, dogs are a supply and demand market. We can't get rid of the supply and the only way to lessen the demand for dogs from irresponsible breeders (however you choose to define them) is through education. Educating buyers based on what they will view is best for them will do a lot more for dogs, breeders and buyers than simply bashing breeders of mixes and people who want one of their dogs.

We've had full shelters for years, this is not a problem that's cropped up in the last few years--even though "designer" dogs have only become popular in recent years. Surely you don't believe that people buying doodles and such would not be purchasing dogs if there was no such thing as a doodle? It's not about the dogs, it's about irresponsible breeding and the type dogs being bred have nothing to do with it.

I agree that education is the key. However, by definition the labradoodle breeder *is* irresponsible because they are breeding solely to make a profit and not for the betterment of a breed or for the perpetuation of a rare breed or for the creation of a new and purposeful breed. That's exploitation, no matter how you slice it and exploitation is irresponsible.
Actually, that's your definition, not mine. There are a number of breeds that have serious issues due to irresponsible breeding for the purpose of winning in the show ring, which I personally don't feel betters the breed at all. The vast majority of dogs are companion pets regardless of their original purpose. Most folks here do things with their dogs but I think we can all agree this forum is not representitive of the average dog owner.

I never said otherwise. However, since breeding mixed breed dogs is irresponsible by definition and because there are far more mixes in shelters, I think the public needs more education on the harm that the designer dogs are doing. The AR sound byte of "if you breed or buy another dog in the shelter dies" is only accurate to a point: most people who buy a registered purebred dog do not want a mixed breed dog. However, if a person wants a mixed breed dog and is suckered into buying a high-priced "designer" dog instead of adopting a dog with a similar mix from a shelter, then the sound byte is correct--because of that designer dog an equally worthy dog of similar breeding died in a shelter.
Now you are confusing people who want to purchase from a breeder with people who want to rescue. Rescue isn't for everyone regardless of what kind of dog you'd like to own just as some folks aren't at all interested in purchasing from a breeder, they'd rather rescue. Dogs will be bred based on supply and demand, it doesn't matter what breed (or mix) they are because that's just a fad and will change. The pet overpopulation has been a documented problem for more than 60 years, designer dogs are a much more recent trend. Cockapoos have been around a while (40 or 50 years I think I've heard? not sure), but the first doodles (the real stars of the designer dog trend) didn't show up till the late '80's and didn't really become popular until much more recently.


Please show me where I said that any legislation was being made to end breeding of mixed breeds. I could only wish that was the fact. What I did say, however, was that because of the irresponsible "breeders" responsible breeders are being made to suffer ill effects. There are a great deal of AR sponsored bills out there right now that involve breeder licensing, setting USDA standards for hobby breeder "kennels" (even when dogs are bred and raised in homes), warrantless entry of property (not a domicile), and so on. Hobby breeders have been targeted by AR representative working with local animal control agents; they have had dogs seized or destroyed, or have been forced to pay punitive fines for no other reason than having intact dogs or dogs with cropped ears or docked tails on the property.
Your comment was "The reason these cutesie pie names are so dangerous is because hobby breeders who care about improving breeds are under fire from punitive legislation started by animal rights activists who want to eliminate pet ownership." I read that as breeders of mixed breeds are the reason (and thus one would assume also a target) for the legislation you mentioned and I would be interested in seeing it. There are most certainly extremists looking to end pet ownership--they are also looking to end the availability of meat in supermarkets and leather in department stores, I believe the probability of one happening is the same as another. I'm not interested in the general animal rights stuff, I am interested in the part that breeders of mixes are specifically responsible for.


Please name one other legal avocation that requires fingerprinting and criminal background checks (other than those requiring firearms), license fees in the hundreds of dollars annually, minimum space requirements per incident, maximum numbers for possession, and so on? All you need to do is look at the legislation in Louisville, Kentucky and in Dallas, TX to see that there are laws in place that make criminals out of people for no other reason than owning and breeding dogs.
Federal licensure for someone with more than fifty dogs per year... That's a lot for a single person to own or sell in a single year. I'm not at all involved in showing or breeding dogs, but that sounds like a lot for someone to handle. Is that the normal number of dogs for a hobby breeder who has a litter every few years to have in their home?

And even if that is the norm, why would federal licensure be bad?

A single person listing hip or knee results with OFA is not the sign of a group of breeders being responsible. When there is a useful database for cocker spaniel/poodle mixes, then I'll consider the possibility of some responsibility.
I'm not pointing to a group of breeders being responsible, I'm only suggesting that it is entirely possible that someone is out there breeding a mix of dogs in a responsible manner (or at least doing some health testing). While it may not be everything I personally look for, it's a start and more than what some people breeding purebreds are doing.

I firmly believe demand matches supply and educated buyers who expect more from breeders are what will lead to better breeding practices. I don't have to know what breed (or mix) of dog a person is searching for to educate them on identifying a responsible breeder because it's the same criteria for a breeder of labradoodles as it is for a breeder of labs.
 

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Hybrids by definition reduce the number of illnesses and genetic conditions that breeds are prone to because they are not a breed and any genetic defects end with the first of second generation.

For every purebred breeder that attempts to breed out genetic defects there are 100 that don't care, so hybrid breeders to more to keep genetic defects from entering the general population than 99% of purebred breeders.
WHAT? WOW. What's the weather like in your world?
 

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I realize you said hobby breeder and I'm familiar with the term, my point was that you equated responsibility with the breed/type of dog being bred and I disagree with it. There are hobby and show breeders who are not responsible so it's hardly the sole requirement.
I never said that there were no irresponsible hobby breeders. I did say that anyone who deliberately produces mixed breeds for the purpose of sale and profit is irresponsible by definition. I stand by that position and would like to hear your explanation as to why it is wrong.

Now, you may not personally have a use for doodles and puggles or whatever, but like it or not there is a market for it. People like and want these dogs whether you approve of them or not and despite your preferences, dogs are a supply and demand market. We can't get rid of the supply and the only way to lessen the demand for dogs from irresponsible breeders (however you choose to define them) is through education. Educating buyers based on what they will view is best for them will do a lot more for dogs, breeders and buyers than simply bashing breeders of mixes and people who want one of their dogs.
There is a market for illegal drugs, too, but that doesn't mean that selling them is acceptable. Although mixed breed dogs are not illegal substances, they comprise the vast majority of the animals being housed and killed in shelters. There is absolutely no effort on the part of the shelter community to educate people about responsible breeding--in fact, breeders are demonized at all levels. Interestingly, many of these demonized breeders are active in rescue and encourage people to adopt from shelters. Ironic, isn't it?

We've had full shelters for years, this is not a problem that's cropped up in the last few years--even though "designer" dogs have only become popular in recent years. Surely you don't believe that people buying doodles and such would not be purchasing dogs if there was no such thing as a doodle? It's not about the dogs, it's about irresponsible breeding and the type dogs being bred have nothing to do with it.
"Designer dogs" are the same mixed breeds that have been inhabiting our shelters for years. Yes, I believe that marketing has led people to purchase them instead of adopt them. You are incredibly naive if you do not. I agree that irresponsible breeding has a lot to do with their existence: if breeders of designer dogs didn't pass them off as breeds then fewer people would be buying them and dumping them when they did not live up to their promise.

Actually, that's your definition, not mine. There are a number of breeds that have serious issues due to irresponsible breeding for the purpose of winning in the show ring, which I personally don't feel betters the breed at all. The vast majority of dogs are companion pets regardless of their original purpose. Most folks here do things with their dogs but I think we can all agree this forum is not representitive of the average dog owner.
Yes, the vast majority of dogs are pets, including the canine competitors that you see on television. Yes, there are some breeds that have flaws that are reproduced for the sake of winning. However, that is not a reason to negate all of the efforts that responsible hobby breeders are making to eliminate genetic issues that affect the breeds.

Now you are confusing people who want to purchase from a breeder with people who want to rescue. Rescue isn't for everyone regardless of what kind of dog you'd like to own just as some folks aren't at all interested in purchasing from a breeder, they'd rather rescue. Dogs will be bred based on supply and demand, it doesn't matter what breed (or mix) they are because that's just a fad and will change. The pet overpopulation has been a documented problem for more than 60 years, designer dogs are a much more recent trend. Cockapoos have been around a while (40 or 50 years I think I've heard? not sure), but the first doodles (the real stars of the designer dog trend) didn't show up till the late '80's and didn't really become popular until much more recently.
Cockapoos are the basis for the designer dog craze, don't you think? In any case, you're just reversing what I said--just as I point out that most people that purchase purebreds are uninterested in mixed breeds, you point out that people who are interested in mixed breeds are not necessarily interested in purebreds. However, the point I was making was about the sound byte: purchases of purebreds are not those that are causing shelter dogs to die--designer dog purchases are. Think about that objectively for a minute.

Your comment was "The reason these cutesie pie names are so dangerous is because hobby breeders who care about improving breeds are under fire from punitive legislation started by animal rights activists who want to eliminate pet ownership." I read that as breeders of mixed breeds are the reason (and thus one would assume also a target) for the legislation you mentioned and I would be interested in seeing it. There are most certainly extremists looking to end pet ownership--they are also looking to end the availability of meat in supermarkets and leather in department stores, I believe the probability of one happening is the same as another. I'm not interested in the general animal rights stuff, I am interested in the part that breeders of mixes are specifically responsible for.
Designer dog breeders do all of the things that the animal rights activists accuse hobby breeder of doing. Worst of all, they breed solely to make a profit. That is exploitation at the very worst. Since AR activists do not choose to separate breeders from one another, hobby breeders are lumped in with commercial breeders, backyard breeders, and mixed breed producers. However, I'm not playing your game of splitting hairs--whether or not you agree with me does not absolve mixed breed dog producers of their responsibility in terms of anti-breeder legislation.

Federal licensure for someone with more than fifty dogs per year... That's a lot for a single person to own or sell in a single year. I'm not at all involved in showing or breeding dogs, but that sounds like a lot for someone to handle. Is that the normal number of dogs for a hobby breeder who has a litter every few years to have in their home? And even if that is the norm, why would federal licensure be bad?
All of the requirements I mentioned are local ones, not federal. Some of these requirements are for people with as few as three intact females whether they are used for breeding or not. Please familiarize yourself with the legislation before you engage in little quips that attempt to minimize the issue.

I'm not pointing to a group of breeders being responsible, I'm only suggesting that it is entirely possible that someone is out there breeding a mix of dogs in a responsible manner (or at least doing some health testing). While it may not be everything I personally look for, it's a start and more than what some people breeding purebreds are doing.
No. Producing mixed breed dogs for the sole reason of profiting from their sale is irresponsible by definition.

I firmly believe demand matches supply and educated buyers who expect more from breeders are what will lead to better breeding practices. I don't have to know what breed (or mix) of dog a person is searching for to educate them on identifying a responsible breeder because it's the same criteria for a breeder of labradoodles as it is for a breeder of labs.
Breeding mixes is irresponsible by definition. Millions of mixes exist in shelters, we do not need people who breed them solely for profit producing more. Education is only possible when breeders are not demonized by those who seek to place these mixes; breeders who currently seek to educate the public have lessened credibility because of these unconscionable actions on the part of shelters that unwittingly (or wittingly) do the animal rights activists work for them. Petfinder, which is spoken of so highly by so many people, does not allow any positive representation of breeding or breeders on their website. Although people are permitted to discuss breeders in a negative light, those who attempt to correct misconceptions or outright lies are banned for their efforts. There is no effort to educate anyone on that site--or on so many sites--of the positive things that hobby breeders do on a daily basis; rather they are converted into "the problem," when purebred animals comprise only a tiny portion of the animals in shelters every year.
 

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I am searching for a new dog (have a three year old Yorky/Llapsa/Pekineese mix now) and I came across Cockapoos for $300. Is that a decent price? I read that they aren't pure breds and should be avoided. Any feedback?

Also looking at Shih Tzus. Any feedback on those?

Thanks
Well, I think it would be resonable IF all vaccs are done and they come with a gift card for S/N. Otherwise I wouldn't touch one for that price.
 

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Just out of curiosity, when it was stated what Hybrid means, Breeds was underlined but the very next words were Varieties and species. Aren't say a Cocker and a Poodle, different VARIETIES?
 

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Just out of curiosity, when it was stated what Hybrid means, Breeds was underlined but the very next words were Varieties and species. Aren't say a Cocker and a Poodle, different VARIETIES?
Good question! No, Cocker Spaniels and Poodles are examples of different breeds of dogs. They each have distinct characteristics that are reproduced in each succeeding generation. These characteristics have been created through generations of selective breeding, usually for a specific purpose. Therefore, while Cockers and Poodles both started out as bird dogs, spaniels are usually used to flush land-based game birds and poodles were typically water bird retrievers.

A variety shows up in a breed that separates its members by size or by coat type. Thirteen and 15-inch Beagles, Toy and standard Manchester Terriers, Rough and Smooth Collies, and all three types of Dachshund are examples of varieties.
 

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Just out of curiosity, when it was stated what Hybrid means, Breeds was underlined but the very next words were Varieties and species. Aren't say a Cocker and a Poodle, different VARIETIES?
Varieties would be analogous to breeds when referring to a species of plant, such as tomatoes or roses.
 

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Carla why would you say the price would be reasonable if all shots were done? The dog would be a year old by then.
Usually when a puppy is sold the shots should be up to date, not all done. And what shot are you thinking of that they don't get until a year old? Rabies is done at 3-4 months, everything would be "done" by then.
 

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Carla why would you say the price would be reasonable if all shots were done? The dog would be a year old by then.

I said all shots AND a gift cert for spay nueter (if NOT already done) because it's close to what many respectable rescues would charge, albeit more than a shelter. I paid about that to adopt Angel, my dobie at 6 months, though she wasn't spayed, from a breeder that had repoed her. Yes, I could have gotten an 8 week old pup from a BYB here for a little more, but I chose to rescue an older pup that needed to be rehomed and had issues (I know, I'm NUTS!!!)
 

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Here are our 2, brother and sister. We have had them now for over a year. They are wonderful and bring so much joy to our lives.



We also have a 6 yr old Pure Golden(rescued at 2 years old)and a 5 month old Pure Newfie.



OMG that Newfie is a total teddy bear!! What a face!!! And your cockapoo on the left looks JUST like my mom's! She got her's from a pet store (she ignored my suggestion of going to a shelter!)...he was older (like 5 months) and she felt horrible for him. He didn't even know how to walk on grass...it scared him! :(

He's a good dog though, a little high strung and needs some training work, but he'll be ok.

They keep him cut short with the face longer.
 

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OMG that Newfie is a total teddy bear!! What a face!!! And your cockapoo on the left looks JUST like my mom's! She got her's from a pet store (she ignored my suggestion of going to a shelter!)...he was older (like 5 months) and she felt horrible for him. He didn't even know how to walk on grass...it scared him! :(

He's a good dog though, a little high strung and needs some training work, but he'll be ok.

They keep him cut short with the face longer.
His name is actually Teddy!!! That picture was taken when he just turned 4 months old and weight in at 55 lbs. He will be 6 months on 2/6 and he shoud be 70 pounds by then.

The Cockapoo on the left is Lucky and he's the leader of the pack. He's more poodle like while Lucy is more Cocker like(hair wise that is) They have worked out nicely for us so far. They all absolutely love my wife and follow her everywhere all day long.
 

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I said all shots AND a gift cert for spay nueter (if NOT already done) because it's close to what many respectable rescues would charge, albeit more than a shelter. I paid about that to adopt Angel, my dobie at 6 months, though she wasn't spayed, from a breeder that had repoed her. Yes, I could have gotten an 8 week old pup from a BYB here for a little more, but I chose to rescue an older pup that needed to be rehomed and had issues (I know, I'm NUTS!!!)

We may be both a little nuts...That's exactly how I got Disco. Her breeder repoed her at 8 months. She came with all of her shots, just not spayed because of her dmange...oh and of course lets not forget about her issues. :rolleyes:
 

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A reminder to all of our members: It is just good manners, when you copy and paste, to cite your source.

But we all have Google, so why bother?
 

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A reminder to all of our members: It is just good manners, when you copy and paste, to cite your source.

But we all have Google, so why bother?
Manners, I love manners....In sociology, manners are the unenforced standards of conduct which show the actor to be cultured, polite, and refined. They are like laws in that they codify or set a standard for human behavior, but they are unlike laws in that there is no formal system for punishing transgressions, other than social disapproval. They are a kind of norm. What is considered "mannerly" is highly susceptible to change with time, geographical location, social stratum, occasion, and other factors. That manners matter is evidenced by the fact that large books have been written on the subject, advice columns frequently deal with questions of mannerly behavior, and that schools have existed for the sole purpose of teaching manners. A lady is a term frequently used for a woman who follows proper manners; the term gentleman is used as a male counterpart; though these terms are also often used for members of a particular social class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manners

Sorry...couldn't help myself!!!11!!!
 
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