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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Greetings genetic gurus,

I'm mostly versed in colour locus queries but I've run into a wall with the K locus of an ee and an atat, And if they are both likely KB in which case an at dogs offspring with any dog that has no at factor, even if we and no black would never produce a black and tan.

I know black n tan dogs are at at, theoretically tri color in the regards of 'tan point marking'. I been led to understand that to whelp a tan point you need 2 copies of at. Ay Sable overides at. Even though some Sable seems to look like bnt but have no at as overun by ay.
Is there any chance of producing even one tan point from anything other than two at factored? How about the possibility of an ee dog with no chance of at to mate with an atat?
The reason I ask is that I'm in NZ and there are simply no bnt dogs. NZ only has 4'000 poms anyhow and most are pet dogs with no special breeding, and infact 6kg dogs (3kg over a true pom).

Any help is appreciated, and also as I mentioned I'm happy to give advice on anything other than this bnt issue ;)
 

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Two dogs that are KBKy can produce pups that express the A locus.

If both dogs are KB, they can only produce a dog that is black and tan if they both carry Ky.

Then, in order to produce a black and tan dog, they both need to carry at least one copy of at, and one copy of Ky.
Unless in the case of recessive black, which is rare.

Also, if the non e/e dog carries yellow, then half the pups will be yellow, which would hide at pups.

A female that is KBKB, or does not have a copy of at will not produce bnt dogs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
That was wonderful to have another person to bounce ideas! .
Essentially I simply have no chance of bnt, not even 1/8 chance.

Just to clarify-
There is no ay in either dog.
Dam is black n tan with bit of white chest/ mismarked tri. So an atat, and will carry ee or Ee. I can't be sure if she is anything other then KB. I don't actually understand Ky or how it presents outwardly ever.(can you elaborate?). Her parentage is black merle and solid light red. Her siblings have been bnt and (nearly) cryptic merle looking to an untrained eye light sable but in fact a ruddy red/ cream/grey black merle and a Cream blue eye.

Possible sire is cream pi-bald, parentage black Merle and red. Siblings black Merle, bi colour cream, solid cream, and cream with blue eyes.
Gosh as I write this I almost worry these two dogs seem very similar. However I can almost be sure not closely related.

I conclude that even if both dogs were KBky then without both having at least one "at" I can't produce black and tan in New Zealand without import certain bnt factor.

Thanks kindly for input :)
 

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If the dam is black and tan, then the dam is kyky.

If the dog is KB, then it will be solid black or brown.

The only way for sable, wolf grey, black and tan, or recessive black to show is if a dog is KyKy.

Basically, KB is dominant, and expresses as solid black.
Think Bicolour border collie, or black or brown labrador.

Ky is recessive. If a dog is KyKy, then it will express what is in the A locus.
(sable, wolf grey, bnt, or recessive black)

Recessive black (a/a) is very rare. Most black dogs are KB.

I think there would be a 50% chance of e/e pups from this pair.
So half the litter I guess will be e/e

I think what will be produced will depend on the fathers A locus and if he carries or is KyKy
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thank you!

Is it correct a cream (and irrelevant s-locus piebald) is ee? Or Ee thats essentially meaning the dog can't show black pigment. So what can the dogs A locus be? There are certainly no Sable parentage, just black Merle and red is in all the siblings.

My question now is if the dog isn't ay Sable, extremly unlikely at tan point or wolf then what else could he be???!
Does a dog have to have an a locus hidde? Could infact this line of dog always had tan point hidden by KB?
 

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Thank you!

Is it correct a cream (and irrelevant s-locus piebald) is ee? Or Ee thats essentially meaning the dog can't show black pigment. So what can the dogs A locus be? There are certainly no Sable parentage, just black Merle and red is in all the siblings.

My question now is if the dog isn't ay Sable, extremly unlikely at tan point or wolf then what else could he be???!
Does a dog have to have an a locus hidde? Could infact this line of dog always had tan point hidden by KB?
Yes, cream dogs are ee. Ee dogs will express eumelanin (black pigment, unless it's been modified by homozygous bb on the browning locus, in which case the eumelanin will appear brown).

As I explained in the other post, an ee dog could have ANY allele on the A locus - including atat, which is impossible to know (except that it's not a/a) unless you also knew the genetics of the parents and grandparents. For instance, the dog on the right in my signature is kyky, ee, and at/a. But she's not btn - because she can't express eumelanin due to the ee, so there's no way to see the "tan points" (which in her case would be cream anyway) against any black, because she can't produce black.
 

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That was wonderful to have another person to bounce ideas! .
Essentially I simply have no chance of bnt, not even 1/8 chance.

Just to clarify-
There is no ay in either dog.
Dam is black n tan with bit of white chest/ mismarked tri. So an atat, and will carry ee or Ee. I can't be sure if she is anything other then KB. I don't actually understand Ky or how it presents outwardly ever.(can you elaborate?). Her parentage is black merle and solid light red. Her siblings have been bnt and (nearly) cryptic merle looking to an untrained eye light sable but in fact a ruddy red/ cream/grey black merle and a Cream blue eye.

Possible sire is cream pi-bald, parentage black Merle and red. Siblings black Merle, bi colour cream, solid cream, and cream with blue eyes.
Gosh as I write this I almost worry these two dogs seem very similar. However I can almost be sure not closely related.

I conclude that even if both dogs were KBky then without both having at least one "at" I can't produce black and tan in New Zealand without import certain bnt factor.

Thanks kindly for input
If the dam is visually black and tan, then she can't be ee, as if she was she would appear red or cream.

If she is visually black and tan, then she can't be Kb, as if she was she'd appear black.

What is the male at A locus? Did i miss that? If he isn't atat, stay, or AyAy.

Ky allows A Locus to express. Kb causes dog to be black, hiding A locus color. Kbr produces stripped pattern with A locus expression - brindle or black and tan with brindle in points (don't think brindle is in your breed, just giving example).

And yes both parents must carry tan point to produce it.
 
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