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We have two zones each of about 3 acres with lots of trees – Zone 1 in front of the house and Zone 2 behind. Where the zones join, there is a 2m high fence. We want a dog in each. I’ll use the description Deterrent Dog, rather than Guard Dog, i.e. we want their existence to deter burglars, we want the dogs to be wary of strangers, but we will not train them to bite.

In each zone one dog will have free range overnight and on days of miserable weather. There are accessible covered areas in both zones. During nice days (i.e. when we or visitors will be outside), the dogs will be in individual covered caged runs with kennel. These runs will both be in Zone 1.

We already have a Westie (as a Watchdog and to keep rats away), which during the day has free range in Zone 1, and overnight sleeps in the entrance hall.

We need protecting ability (but not Rottweiler style aggressiveness), cold tolerance, and lack of separation anxiety.

Research suggest that suitable breeds are: Anatolian Shepherd/Karabash, Kuvasz, and Tornjak.

What I am looking for is thoughts on whether the two dogs should be the same or different breeds, what genders we should get, and whether we should neuter them. Obviously a bitch and a dog of the same breed, kept entire, who are not too closely related would enable us to breed their future replacements. But what about behavioural interactions from the different combinations?

Would it be a good idea to get a second dog in Zone 2 to provide company?
 

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Let me get this straight, you want to pen up a dog in a kennel during the day, then allow it to roam free at night or in bad weather in a 3 acre zone? You are not guarding livestock in these 3 acres zones? You might even pen up 2 dogs together in each zone (4 dogs total)?

I can't imagine this being anything but a trainwreck thread.

Dogs are social creatures. Livestock Guardian dogs live with their flock... not off on thier own. I'll let the LG people speak up about thier breed. But I really don't think it's healthy for any dog to live in such a manner that you describe.
 

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So you want a dog that you can keep outside? And won't dig or escape from your fence? And isn't dog aggressive? Also, I assume you mean you want a dog that will bark and look scary, but actually not do anything? Is that what the "rottweiler style aggressiveness" is suppose to mean? Also a dog who won't care not being a part of a family and isn't sad to see you go? And then you hope to breed them...

A stuffed dog and a DMX CD might just do the trick!
 

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I see and understand what you are trying to do here.

The problem is the dogs themselves. They are not robot sentrys. They wont be much of a deterrent if they obviously welcome and crave any contact from an outsider, and just like at the pound, and this is what you are setting them up for with the seperation from each other and thier family.
It is not what Dogs were bred for, and goes against thier instincts and nature..and it's borderline cruel.

If you want a deterrent/alarm system that you can feed and forget about for the most part, get half a dozen Geese to augment a good security system.

Best part about Geese is that they are noisy, hyper alert, and meaner than hell, and will whack the snot out of anyone stupid enough to ignore them, and no wannabe intruder is going to go crying to a Lawyer, that they got thier butt kicked by a goose. If they do, ask for a jury trial. LOL!! No judge or Jury is gonna blame a homeowner for thier goose going postal on some wimpy punk, or some fool that ignorantly wandered in, and ignored all the hissing and noise.
They also do a great job eating every tick and bug they can find.
 

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I'm not sure how much interaction you were planning to provide these dogs? If you do not give the dogs sufficient socialization and companionship, they'll be lonely and attention-starved and will probably allow anyone in, as long as they get some attention. If you do provide the dogs with all the attention they need, they'll probably do a fine job of wanting to keep strangers away from their people and property. Breeds who are naturally inclined to protect their property are Dobermans, Rottweilers, GSDs, etc. I'm not sure what you mean by not wanting "Rottweiler-style aggressiveness", because they're no more likely to be aggressive than any guarding breed, and guarding can be channeled very well with proper training. Livestock guardian breeds like to guard livestock, not property, I don't think they'd be good for this purpose.

If you're not planning to give the dogs attention and everything else they need, I don't think any breed is suitable. And probably will not work out for your purposes.
 

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I'm not really sure why this has to be a popcorn moment. If I turned my Rott loose in a fenced area at night, he'd love patrolling it and barking at intruders (and raccoons). Pampered pet by day, patrol dog extraordinaire by night. . .super dog! He would think that was the best game ever. It really all depends on what kind of treatment the dogs get during the day. Some kenneling wouldn't be bad, because dogs do sleep a lot. But if their social needs weren't taken care of, that would be a bad situation.
 

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Putting forth a tremendous effort to be completely objective,
there seems to be a fundamental problem here,
perhaps due to a lack of information...

A disturbing trend in terminology emerges in your post, zsalya:

The use of words and phrases like,
zone,
deter,
wary,
protecting ability,
cold tolerance,
lack of separation anxiety,
behavioural interactions,
different combinations

send up warning signals.

A number of breeds come to mind,
none of which I can mention in good conscience, as there are
potentially serious problems brewing with this scenario ...

Simply put, not providing for their social and emotional needs
is likely to result in uncontrollable dogs who are
just as likely to protect their "zones" from you!
 

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I'm not really sure why this has to be a popcorn moment. If I turned my Rott loose in a fenced area at night, he'd love patrolling it and barking at intruders (and raccoons). Pampered pet by day, patrol dog extraordinaire by night. . .super dog! He would think that was the best game ever. It really all depends on what kind of treatment the dogs get during the day. Some kenneling wouldn't be bad, because dogs do sleep a lot. But if their social needs weren't taken care of, that would be a bad situation.
In the OPs scenario, it sounds like the dogs would be kenneled in an outdoor kennel whenever people were around. Far from pampered pets.

The geese are actually a really good idea. They won't make anyone feel like a tough guy, but they are LOUD and mean as h*ll.
 

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Get some camera and a gun. You can be your own guard dog. Put surveillance cameras up around the house and land. Get a gun and that will be a lot cheaper and easier then getting a bunch of dogs that you don't want to train or work with.
 

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I smell an idiot who doesn't know crap about dogs and their needs.
 

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I heard something on NPR about prisons in Mexico using geese. I laughed and pondered it over at the same time.
Remember the Cold war? We had geese patrolling the buffer zone between east/west on our side in may places. The Stazi hated the Geese more than anything.

There is no sneaking up on them, buying them off, or conditioning them to not be obnoxious. The Mexicans ain't stupid.;)
 

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Okay, off the bat I'm not going to assume anything. Zsalya, you don't list anything about your experience or intentions so I'm going to have to draw my own conclusions based on the limited info you do list. Since I get a minimum of about 10 calls/emails like this a week... I'm going to assume you have reason to want to keep the perimeter from being breeched. Since I do this kind of work, I will say point blank that there are folks who have need for this type of security that has NOTHING to do with paranoia. Don't know if you're one of them so... in GENERAL

It is extremely rare to find a dog to do the kind of specialty work where he has no interaction with the family. So if your intention is for these to be kennel kept except when in the 'zones' you're not going to have a lot of success. Dogs kept in isolation are very easy for the bad guys to buy off & get past which = system failure. The next problem is the dogs who are suited to being left alone in the zone to do this type of work are dogs who are A-1-Gauranteed to get you sued or bitten if you aren't a very highly skilled handler. I've owned a few of them. 1 right now works on a thousand acre compound in a place where laws are not as they are in the US.

What I think you're really refering to is what I call Alarm dogs. They put on a show, they bark. Here's the problem. A dog who comes to the fence, barks & shows aggression to protect the 'zone' who is not trained when it's appropriate to bite & MORE IMPORTANTLY the command to CEASE all aggression is extremely dangerous for most folks to own. Why you might ask? Because if I handle such a dog I can read him fast enough to see if the 'bad guy' or perceived bad guy trips the trigger from bark-only to contact. One of the worst dog bite cases I was called in as a professional witness for ended up as being an educational lesson for judge, jury, both attorneys, etc... it was awful. Under oath I had to tell the truth & at the point the dog went from alert, to warning to the break over in the dog's mind to make contact.. it was over. The dog was NOT trained to come off on command.

Furthermore you underestimate the amount of room a dog can work. You break this up in 3 acres & that seems like a lot but it's not to a dog. Plus the dog needs a REASON to alert, to bring the roof off the house when an intruder approaches. Unless you get a vicious dog & some fool teases him (BAD... bad... MEGA stupid idea)... you're not going to get the desired result unless you give that dog a reason to want to guard that perimeter.

I'm also guessing that since you're speaking of fence heights in m (meters?) I'm assuming you're not in the US. So you may well be in a very different situation from the norm. If so, I'm not trying to give you a hard time but I am trying to present you with very real facts to think about. I could be a very wealthy person just setting people up with dogs trained for what they say they want however reality vs thoughts or what works on paper are extremely different.

My current youngster is a dog who at adulthood I will be able to send her into my home to search, if anything has been moved or is out of place, I will get the alert. So I will know if someone's been in my home & most definately if they're still in there. The question is why will this dog provide this serivce? She does so because there is a bond forming between us. Provided I don't dishonor that bond & do something stupid, as she grows to adulthood she will be more & more willing to protect & defend my life & our home, our property. This is not done by kenneling her outside & having her run the yard at night. In fact, I won't permit a dog to work a perimeter unless they are fully mature, otherwise they end up barking at all the wrong things. And yes, their first weeks/months working that perimeter, you can bet I'm there with them... guiding, correcting mistakes, praising the right behavior. Dogs who do this work have to be trained to the highest degree, they have to be tested OFTEN (I don't mean once a year) I've tested mine 3 times a week... skip a month... test a gain, skip a week, test again because I have to know they'll do their job but I also have to know that they're not going to do the wrong thing.

The Westie is a good rodent dog. Rottweiler type aggression leads me to think maybe you've seen bad examples or you've seen dogs trained in something maybe too harsh for you. The problem is, alert dogs are on a fine line & it won't take a burglar (especially one who likes dogs) very long to figure out if your dog had steel in his spine or if he's running a bluff. I go through miles & miles of film footage a month of people who have their dogs on camera when they're tested. One we caught a burglary in progress & the bad guy had only to deliver a hamburger to get thru the gate.

I hope this has provided you some food for thought. There is a lot more to having a dog willing to do the work you want. Their presence alone isn't going to do it. If they don't have the kind of strong bond... the bad guy might rip off your possessions & take the dog with him as the dog who's latch-key will be looking for a bond. And yes, this has really happened before.

Geese are a better idea for what you're looking for (with very little people interaction) & so are peacocks.
 

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A disturbing trend in terminology emerges in your post, zsalya:

The use of words and phrases like,
zone,
deter,
wary,
protecting ability,
cold tolerance,
lack of separation anxiety,
behavioural interactions,
different combinations

send up warning signals.
I don't know for sure but the phrasing of certain things in the OP and the breeds the OP mentioned led me to believe that he may not be from the US, and likely not a native English speaker, that may explain the choice in terminology. It is easy to see how the differences in connotations of "zone" and "area" or "section" may not be obvious to a non-native speaker.
 
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