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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Breeding two varieties of the same breed...? [edit]

Do you all think it's okay too breed two dogs that are the same breed but come in two different varieties/types or should they always be breed separately? By types, I mean, two different ear types (Papillon&Phalene/Rat Terrier) or coat types (Rough Collie&Smooth Collie). A friend of mine had 3 Rat Terrier puppies (they're almost a year old now) and one of the three got the floppy eared gene, while the others got the more common erect-ear variety, which got me thinking about this to begin with. I can't remember if both the male and the female had the erect ears or not, but lets say one had floppy and the other erect, would it have been better (figuratively speaking, this was an accidental breeding) if they were breed with the same ear type so they would have more predictable puppies? (*They kept all the puppies, by the way, they weren't ever for sale and the parents are fixed now, so don't freak. xD) The only thing I can think of, that would be a positive to breeding the different types, would be if the more uncommon variety had a very small gene pool, though, for all I know, there might be more positives... I think if you did breed two varieties, it may not be so great for the potential owners, if they want one version specifically, but good for those who are looking to be surprised and would be happy with whichever outcome.

[EDIT]Lets say you were a breeder of a breed with a little variety, would you breed them together? I'm not sure I would, since I'd want to be able to know (for the most part) how the puppies should turn out, including ear/coat type. Unless, for whatever reason, I couldn't get two dogs I thought fit the standard with the same variety and could find a dog that's a bit different (in the ears or coat, than I would have liked) that is too my liking in pretty much everything else.
 

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Its the same as breeding two dogs of different colours (dobes for example). You might breed a red dobe to a black dobe to get a mix of black and reds in the litter. You might breed and rough and a smooth collie to get a mix in the litter. if a buyer wants a specific type, then the breeder will tell them what is what if they can't figure it out themselves.

Reputable breeders breed their litters for a purpose. While they may not be able to predict exactly what will be produced, they know what to expect with each breeding as far as colour, coat type, ear type etc.
 

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dogs should only be bred together if the breeder has intentions of bettering the breed overall through a long term goal/plan. never on a whim to just see what will happen or to customize an already established standard...we already have way too many dogs (pure breds and mutts) in shelters looking for a good home!! if someone is so picky as to want a certain ear type then i would argue they shouldn't have a dog - that sounds very superficial and selfish.
 

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ears can actually be important echoica..like hounds ears are so very long they hit the ground and act as a sort of ssound funnel amplifying far off sounds..like the sound of retreating quarry.

so it depends on the trait. they are all there for a reason. breeding type to type is generally good from a genetics standpoint.though
 

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ears can actually be important echoica..like hounds ears are so very long they hit the ground and act as a sort of ssound funnel amplifying far off sounds..like the sound of retreating quarry.

so it depends on the trait. they are all there for a reason. breeding type to type is generally good from a genetics standpoint.though
i agree - i spoke against breeding outside of 'established standards'

ps; the original hounds of many years ago did not have ears as long as they are today. this trait has been over-emphasized by selective breeding for show to the point where it is actually detrimental to the original working purpose of the hound.
 

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depends on what hound breed. you are talking about as to whether or not thats true.

ps. its not really fair to compare breeds to their history in such a way without taking into consideration historical fact...before the 1900 breed wasnt the same thing we think of it as.

breed was more like type..like bloodhounds..what we have today is a st huberts(or norbers...cant remember the exact name) bloodhound. which was just one variety of what was considered a bloodhound.
 

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Generally, breeding in varieties is acceptable* if the governing kennel club considers them one breed (I would imagine size variations might be the exception).

So, AKC smooth and rough collies are varieties and are often bred together, but the Kennel Club (of England) considers them two separate breeds and they cannot be bred together. But contrast something like the Belgian breeds, which are considered three separate breeds by the AKC but three varieties of the same breed by most European clubs. I understand splitting varieties like this makes genetic diversity take a hit, but I don't know the specifics.

*What is acceptable is up to each breeder/buyer to determine for themselves, responsibe breeding is subjective, make your own decisions, yadda yadda yadda.
 

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ears can actually be important echoica..like hounds ears are so very long they hit the ground and act as a sort of ssound funnel amplifying far off sounds..like the sound of retreating quarry.
Sidetrack, but I've always been told that the ears (and wrinkles for that matter) are on the hounds to funnel scent up to the nose, not sound.
 

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There are some breeds, like the Chinese Crested where its a good idea to breed dogs of different varieties! IIRC having two copies of the hairless gene is fatal for the unborn puppy, and so breeders try to breed hairless to Powderpuff.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Generally, breeding in varieties is acceptable* if the governing kennel club considers them one breed (I would imagine size variations might be the exception).
So, since (for example) the Phaléne is considered a Papillon by the AKC, it's okay? The thing that's strange is, I hear that if you breed dogs with different ear types, there is a chance that one ear will stick up and the other one won't. So, I would think they would have them breed separately, like in the FCI....Also, I hear it takes a long time to find out which ears the puppy will get (months, so I've heard)...you'd think that would frustrate a breeder and buys, but maybe people don't normally care. xD

So, AKC smooth and rough collies are varieties and are often bred together, but the Kennel Club (of England) considers them two separate breeds and they cannot be bred together. But contrast something like the Belgian breeds, which are considered three separate breeds by the AKC but three varieties of the same breed by most European clubs. I understand splitting varieties like this makes genetic diversity take a hit, but I don't know the specifics.

*What is acceptable is up to each breeder/buyer to determine for themselves, responsibe breeding is subjective, make your own decisions, yadda yadda yadda.
They are? Hmm, I didn't know that. I just assumed most just breed for one or the other, regardless of the fact that they don't have too for the AKC...

@Nargle - I heard about that! O: Though, it's that a bit different, since it's a requirement and the breeder doesn't have a choice?
 

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If we were to only breed papillons to papillons and phalenes to phalenes, the phalene would likely go extinct in the US. In other countries they are not bred together but through registries where they are there will always be an interflow of genes. Occasionally you have ear problems, but it is not often and I think you'd have them anyways breeding one type together. All the 'ear mistakes' I know are from pap to pap breedings, actually. The bottom line is though for me and most other breed fanciers in the US (and the UK does not split the types) the benefits of not separating the genepool in half greatly outweigh the risk we take that we might get some pet quality pups with confused ears.

Breeding outside of varieties is imo a GOOD thing. Genetic diversity and difference in looks is not a bad thing. The healthier breeds tend to have a larger gene pool and it could potentially be detrimental to cut out a large part of the gene pool based on something as immaterial as ear placement.

The way the AKC has split belgian varieties into separate 'breeds' for example is so silly and not in any way beneficial to the breed as a whole. They still can produce different varieties in the same litter, but some now can't be registered. It's silly. If you split paps and phalenes right now, you would still have phalenes born from pap parents. There is nothing different except the ears and that's not enough to make them their own breed.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Laurelin, if you don't become a breeder someday, I'll be angry with you. ಠ__ಠ...:]
I suppose you have a pretty good point, though, if that's the case, why don't Phaléne breeders ever seem to breed with Papillons or visaversa, even here (AKC) they're seperate from all the breeder sites I've seen on the Papillon Club of America? .__.;
 

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The AKC standard for rough and smooth collies are the same with the exception of coat. They are very often bred together as was mentioned. My Jett came from rough dad and a smooth mom, so does the new pup we have. they can produce smooths and roughs in one litter.
 

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Laurelin, if you don't become a breeder someday, I'll be angry with you. ಠ__ಠ...:]
I suppose you have a pretty good point, though, if that's the case, why don't Phaléne breeders ever seem to breed with Papillons or visaversa, even here (AKC) they're seperate from all the breeder sites I've seen on the Papillon Club of America? .__.;
Which sites? I know of some breeders that breed phalenes and paps but most I know just breed paps (mostly due to a real lack of quality phalenes). Right now there are a few breeders here trying desperately to re-establish the type in the US as it had lost a lot of favor. That would be my guess. American lines really don't have many quality phalenes coming out of them. People are importing phalenes and breeding them together to re-introduce the type. It's just now that the type is doing well in shows. I think we'll see more and more of them and see them bred together more often. I know people in the UK and they cross the two all the time. They are bred together though, because looking back on some of my dogs' pedigrees there are pap x phalene breedings. Although they were all done in the UK. I think it is okay to specialize in one or the other as long as we do keep the interflow going between the two.

I do hope to breed one day! lol

ETA: What I'm saying is that even though people do specialize in one or the other, you can get good phalenes out of papillon breedings and good papillons out of phalene breedings so there will always be some genetic interchange. The ear genetics are not understood well at all. Paps seem to be more dominant however it is possible to breed phalene to phalene and get a papillon and it is also possible to breed papillon to papillon and get a phalene.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
I'd have to go look to find some again, but all the breeders that I saw who had both didn't seem to breed them. (some also were on Phaléne Fancies) I can see the websites in my head(one was purple&black, the other green, and the last blue), but I can't remember the kennel names, should have faved them. Hmm, so if a breeder breed the two together, what really are the chances of getting a Phalene if that is the breedrs main objective? Seeing as how I'm sure lots of paps (from the US) don't have phalenes in their pedgrees within the first 10 parents.

I want to be on your waiting list! :'D

*I can think of a really nice Phaléne that came from two pap parents.
http://www.candygolds.com/papillon/e-keeper.htm
 

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a friend of mine breeds Collies and they just had a litter a while ago between two Smooth coated dogs and one of the puppies (I think it was only one) came out rough coated. Their next breeding is going to be between one of their smooth bitches and a blue merle rough from another kennel.
 

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If the dogs were a good match, then I wouldn't care about their variety. Doesn't hurt anything.
 

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I'd have to go look to find some again, but all the breeders that I saw who had both didn't seem to breed them. (some also were on Phaléne Fancies) I can see the websites in my head(one was purple&black, the other green, and the last blue), but I can't remember the kennel names, should have faved them. Hmm, so if a breeder breed the two together, what really are the chances of getting a Phalene if that is the breedrs main objective? Seeing as how I'm sure lots of paps (from the US) don't have phalenes in their pedgrees within the first 10 parents.

I want to be on your waiting list! :'D

*I can think of a really nice Phaléne that came from two pap parents.
http://www.candygolds.com/papillon/e-keeper.htm
That's a nice looking dog!

We really don't understand the genetics well enough to know what chances are. Typically people who are trying to breed for good phalenes either breed phalene to phalene or phalene to a papillon that has a history of lines that throw phalenes. For reasons currently unknown some papillon lines do not seem to produce phalenes and other lines do produce phalenes. I think a lot of American papillons do have phalenes a few generations back. A couple of mine have phalenes 3 gens back. I simply think this because we have pretty much always imported and exported dogs, especially with the UK, where the phalene is a bit more prominent. Sweden, Belgium and the like seem to have the most phalenes.

Another top winning phalene from papillon breedings is Cobb "Arkeno's Ears to You". As you can see, he comes from pap x pap.

http://global.papillonpedigrees.org/cgi-bin/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=2463&gens=5&db=Papillon.dbw

Also interesting to note (for me) he was bred to another phalene and the litter was one papillon and one phalene. So it's never a sure thing.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Isn't he adorable! <3 There is also another black&white phalene (from Finland) that I can think of, a red&white one two also comes to mind, but they have phalene parents.

When you mean they don't produce phalene, do you mean when they are breed with other paps or when they are breed with phalene?

I always assumed all your paps where from America, I don't know why. Atleast, Mia is, right?

The link didn't work, but I found a picture of him! I was wondering what the he looked like, since I heard about a phalene winning the PCA National Specialty.
 
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