Breeder vs. shelter/rescue?

Frankly, I think it's a little silly (and buying a little much into the overpopulation presumed-conclusion) to even debate whether breeding is ethical. To make the assumption that intentional breeding is NOT ethical is to assume that companion animals should die out- because the only ones produced would be from shelters or rescue, which are automatically not breeding candidates since any responsible shelter or rescue alters their dogs.

If we want healthy, sound, drivey (purebred or strainbred) dogs to be available in 10 years, responsible breeders need to be breeding them now.

I have heard people say "Well, if everyone just STOPPED for a year/5 yeras/10 years, we could get on top of the shelter population." And the thing is, I just don't see where they're figuring that. First, that assumes that everyone who was breeding intentional litters would obey the law. (Just like they obey their local licensing and sales tax laws? HAH.) Secondly, this depends on the assumption that people who are going to get a dog will take pretty much any dog, and that any dog can fit into pretty much any situation with a small amount of work. And that just plain isn't true. All dogs aren't created equal, and the demand for small to medium sized dogs who are relatively easy to live with FAR outstrips shelter supply, even if vet care, transportation and training were increased to allow dogs who are currently unadoptable due to medical conditions (such as mange, HBC, luxating patellas- all maojr expenses to treat and must be done beofre placement, so they also tie up a kennel run), temperament problems, or location (for example, it's relatively easy to find a chihuahua in a shelter here in TX if you're not picky about behavior, but the same dog would get snapped up in a shelter in NYC.) And some types of dogs- notably pit bulls- have a surplus pretty much wherever you are. So people are still going to want to get dogs, and they're not necessarily going to be able to find (or want naything) that is available from their local shelters. It'll result in underground puppy sales and imports from Mexico and Canada.

A dog generation is basically 10 years. Bitches can't generally be bred safely any older than 8 (and that's pushing it as an average- most breeders won't breed a girl past 7) and dogs generally are not fertile much past 10 or 11. You can save semen, but there's no replacement for those bitches whose entire reproductive career would be missed. ANd suddenly, you have entire breeds where the ENTIRE population that is still intact is those belonging to people who broke the law- the ones who stayed underground, who didn't health test or show or make themselves visible in any way. Is that REALLY who you want controlling the future of dogs?


I got my first dog from a breeder because I could not find the dog I wanted in rescue. I had a specific size range, I wanted a certain personality, and it was plain not available in rescue. The breed rescue for that particular breed gets approximately 100 dogs per year across the entire US, and if you want a young, sound dog (ie, for agility competition), you can literally wait YEARS. Then I got interested in showing. And it just grew from there. My life revolved around DOING stuff with my dogs. I grew up and moved on to another breed, where it was very difficult to find people who were balancing health, temperament, and breed type in a way I was satisfied with. If I wanted the exact blend of priorities that *I* felt were the correct way, I was going to need to do that myself. And that's where I am right now. Drive, health, temperament, all in a typey body- a dog who looks AND acts the way the breed is supposed to, with the drive and soundness to WORK for a living as a sports dog or a service dog, as well as being beautiful- but if I have to sacrifice something, it's going to be the finer points of looks as compared to the breed stnadard- nothing else.

Well first I think one needs to consider what it would be like if there was NO breeding - which is what some very pro rescue people (I'm not meaning you specifically) believe should be the case. What would happen to all the breeds that exist today? They certianly wouldn't be put on hold until shelter numbers went down and it became 'ok' to breed agian. Lines wouldn't freeze in place, ready to be picked up agian. Rather we would lose A LOT of valuable and hard word when it came to the art of purebred dogs. Those rare breeds that are barely hanging around at is it would likely become very very scarce if not totally extinct in some areas and what little stock we have of them now would age and die off. Even the established breeds would suffer as those lines that are currently bettering them and striving to meet the standard would also dissipate. You'd basically be looking at losing a whole lot of history. Generations of time and energy when into creating each and every one of those breeds...and all of that would gradually disappear were we to end breeding complete - even on a temporary basis. I think putting a pause on breeding is a lot more drastic (and unrealistic - but if we're imagining the effects...) then most people realize.

Next I think one needs to understand and realize that rescue and adoption is not for everyone. I work in rescues and fully understand the desire to find these dogs homes and the whole ticking clock thing when it comes to how much time they have. But I also know that every family has a specific list of requirements they are looking for in a pet. Sometimes this means they aren't suited for a dog that comes with possible or frequent behavior problems, unknown backgrounds, and mystery breeds. Some families need some semblance of assurance when it comes to 'what they're getting' in a dog. This is where breeders come in.

I will say that my own dog is from a breeder. We live in an apartment and at the time she was purchased I was fairly young and my parents weren't exactly versed in dog ownership. They wanted something small, manageable, apartment friendly, right grooming/energy requirements, etc. And while they did scan through the rescues a few times it was eventually decided to go the breeder route. With Dakota we had a 'profile' of what was generally expected of her breed (Rat Terrier) and were therefor better able to not only meet her needs but assure that she was the right fit for our situation. I'm not say this is impossible with shelter dogs but the outcome is slightly less sure at times.

To sum it all up, I sit on the fence when it comes to breeding vs. rescue. I see the benefits of going both ways and encourage families to investigate what will work best for them. I think ultimately it's important to remember that everyone is in a different situation and there isn't one cookie cutter solution that will fit them all. It would be great if we could somehow bring the abandoned animal number down to zero but unfortunately that's not a very realistic goal. So in the mean time you've just got to deal with what you've got. Get the information out there, educate people on their choices, and hope they make the right one for themselves.

Hope that kind of answered your question some - that yes, I do think responsible breeding is ethical, as I also think rescuing is ethical and don't put one over the other. Another important note is that a lot of responsible breeders are ALSO involved in the rescue and placement of their breed as well. Many pull dogs from shelters and help to get them into new homes. So it's not like the two 'sides' are totally separate - rather often they are working together.

Edit: Dogstar beat me to some of that. I type too slow

over my lifetime I have had both.
My very first dog, a min. poodle (when I was a young child) came from a breeder. I ahve no idea how my parents found this breeder. It was many years later when i worked at a Veterinary Hospital did I find out that the kennel was well known.

2nd dog was a Lab mix I got from a neighbor. Their grown truck driver son brought the puppy home when his wife was pregnant with their first child. Needless to say, he was never around and his parents felt sorry for the dog and took her home. I happen to dog sit the dog one summer and they let me keep her.

3rd dog, Border Collie. By now I am a 18 year old and was interested in AKC obed.

4th dog. Shep mix. we got our current mix, Scooby when i was pregnant with my 3rd child. I knew I would not have time to show a dog so we went to the shelter.

5th and 6th dogs Collies. Now my daughter is into dog shows we are back to purebreds.

I have acquired several rescue dogs in my life most of them Border Collies and a few mixed breed herding breeds. Most of them came with many problems to include genetic health issues such as CEA ,HIP DISPLASIA, and other stuctural issues. Some of the dogs required a good amount of time and resources in addressing these issues. I find it so sad to know and experience a dog that suffers because of poor social conditioning, management, and health issues not to say that all rescue dogs have them or come with them .

I like and unlike others
participate in various sports with with my dogs such as agility,flyball,SAR, and herding and for me it is important that not only does the dog need to be well socialized, well tempered, and biddable but also as healthy as possible and that is where responsible well thought out breeding practices play a important factor in my choosing a dog. It is not only disheartening to own a dog that has been neglected in some form or fashion but one that often has a shortened or less fullfilled life because of irresponsible breeding practices.

For some people it is simply a matter of sharing a life of love with a dog and who cares if it can be a performance or work dog and needs help with disabilities. For others it can be and should be beneficial to acquire a dog who's breeding has been well thought out in considering bettering the breed.

Who's to judge whether certain breeds with major inheritable structural,health, and temperment problems should ever be bred in the first place? Why some people choose to breed regardless of breed/s or health concerns will always be a question of vanity when you really think about it regardless of being strictly a compainion dog, work or performance dog.

I got two dogs from a breeder and two from the pound.

GottaLuvMutts said:

If you got your dog from a breeder, what were your reasons?

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I wanted a particular breed all my life. Once I was in a position to get one, I did the research and decided I wanted one with health testing and temperament testing. I also wanted a puppy to raise in what I consider to be the right way. I wanted a clean slate, not someone else's mistakes.

If you rescue, why?

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My first two puppies came from the pound. I guess this is considered a "rescue", though I don't think of it in those terms. The reason I did it was because I wanted a dog and it didn't much matter to me what breed it was. I just wanted the experience of having a dog in my life.

I have never regretted either choice, but I much prefer a puppy from a breeder. One of my pound puppies has pretty severe hip dysplasia. That's why I will buy from a breeder in the future. I can't stand to see my dog in pain and not be as active as I know she'd like to be.

[quote[ Am I missing something here?[/quote]

Only the fact that getting a dog from a rescue is FULL of unknowns and getting a dog from a breeder has many fewer unknowns as regards health and temperament. You can learn a LOT by going over a pup's pedigree.

I guess what I'm really asking is whether someone can comment on the ethics of breeding, whether responsible or not?

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Well, IMO, irresponsible breeding is NOT ethical. Responsible breeding is. And IMO, it comes down to this. Responsible breeders are in it for the breed. Not for making money or anything else. To better the breed that they love. To guarantee that there will be healthy GSDs and Border Collies and Bernese Mountain Dogs in the future.

If all responsible breeders just stopped, eventually, all we'd have would be unhealthy, dysplastic and temperamentally unstable dogs...

The “millions” of dogs you are talking about do not come from reputable breeders... Honestly... have you been too you’re local shelter??? There are mutts galore available for adoption - bred by people who thought it would be fun to have “max’s” babies... without the slightest consideration that they know NOTHING about “max”, his genes, his breed, his ancestors etc. But because he needs to at least have s*x once before he’s neutered! (Like he would even know what the hell the difference is!)
Shelter/rescue dogs is not a result of reputable breeders breeding dogs and neither do reputable breeders influence what happens in shelters! Shelters/rescues are a result of people supporting puppy mills, byb and “oops” my dog got pregnant now what do I do?

They are a result of un-educated... irresponsible people who got a pet without considering all the aspects involved in caring for another living thing! There wouldn’t be shelters if people didn’t dispose of their pets like they were last year’s fashion item.

Reputable breeders will NEVER have their pride and joy end up in a shelter somewhere in another state!
They rarely make any profit off of a litter, cause reputable breeders don’t breed just cause their dog needs to get some. They do extensive research before even considering breeding... they are 100% involved in the breed they breed.
They only breed their best dogs... (which incidentally it costs money to travel and have your dog compete in dog shows etc. in order for them to gain a Champion etc. title!)
They health test for genetic diseases to make sure what they produce is excellent quality(which costs A LOT of money)
They might have to pay a stud fee for breeding their champion female to a champion male. (which costs money)
They need to confirm pregnancy and mostly does it by going to the vet for an ultra-sound (which costs money)
They have their female on vitamins and a great diet so they’ll know that when the pups arrive she won’t run out of milk or have problem due to lack of nutrition. (which costs money)
If there are complications at birth, they won’t think twice about taking her to the emergency vet. (which costs money)
They feed and care for the mother and her off spring for 8 weeks or longer depending (which costs money)
Reputable breeders often don't break even (they might if they are lucky!!!)

Go to your local and go and look at the dogs they have up for adoption.... I keep an eye on whatever goes in and out of my local shelter cause they have a website which I visit at least once a week. I very rarely see a purebred dog there, VERY RARELY!!!!
Cause reputable breeders take back their puppies if ever an owner can no longer care for a dog. No matter what!

GottaLuvMutts said:

If you got your dog from a breeder, what were your reasons? If you breed, what are yours? If you rescue, why?

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I have paid for one dog from a breeder. This was a long time ago and I will never do this again. I fell in love with dogs about 15yrs ago when I paid for my first dog. I never new how much more I enjoyed a dogs company over a human
They are the most loyal companions you will ever have in your life. They are truly my best friends.

Since I've realized this I also realized I could never pay someone for a dog when there are so many great dogs out there being killed everyday due to irresponsible bad dog people. If I want a certain breed I will look for a breed specific rescue shelter. So far I have just gone to the local pound and picked one up at a time. Or I have taken in dogs from friends or friends of friends who thought their dog was just bad or couldn't keep it anymore.

My latest adoption was a Pit. A breed I never thought I would get. Not due to vicious reputation but the status symbol people have made of them. I saw one I couldn't resist (the pound was full of them) and thought it would be a perfect opportunity to show people around me they are not vicious killers but great lovable dogs all the same as any other dog.
That's my new vicious killer Pit in the middle on my avatar.
Oh and I will also never again have a puppy. I much prefer to work with a dog that is at least 2yrs old with good or bad habits it's all the same to me.

Dozi said:

The “millions” of dogs you are talking about do not come from reputable breeders... Honestly... have you been too you’re local shelter??? There are mutts galore available for adoption - bred by people who thought it would be fun to have “max’s” babies... without the slightest consideration that they know NOTHING about “max”, his genes, his breed, his ancestors etc. But because he needs to at least have s*x once before he’s neutered! (Like he would even know what the hell the difference is!)
Shelter/rescue dogs is not a result of reputable breeders breeding dogs and neither do reputable breeders influence what happens in shelters! Shelters/rescues are a result of people supporting puppy mills, byb and “oops” my dog got pregnant now what do I do?

Go to your local and go and look at the dogs they have up for adoption.... I keep an eye on whatever goes in and out of my local shelter cause they have a website which I visit at least once a week. I very rarely see a purebred dog there, VERY RARELY!!!!
Cause reputable breeders take back their puppies if ever an owner can no longer care for a dog. No matter what!

Click to expand...

Our local Humane Society almost always has purebreds of some kind or another. Their website says approximately 25% of the dogs that come through there are purebred. Now, whether these are the result of some BYB, puppy mill or responsible breeder, I can't say, but they are pure breds nonetheless.

The dog I owned as a child was a mutt. I'm not sure where my parents got him, but I suspect it was an ad in the paper giving away free dogs more likely than not. They got him as a puppy. The dog after that was a lab who we also got as a puppy from someone advertising in the paper.

When I moved out, I got a corgi/terrier mix who's horror story I've told before. He was a rescue. The dogs I have now are both rescues and both purebreds. Zero is a purebred spaniel with an amazing temperament. I get compliments on his behavior everywhere I go. I got him from the Humane Society though so I have no idea what his background is, nor do I care especially. Brutus is a purebred basset although the lady I got him from suspected he's mixed with dachshund. I suspect Cerberus may have sired him, but have not been able to confirm this. Anyway, I got him from a breed rescue so that's probably not the best example.

I will likely never deal with a breeder. I don't have the time or the energy to keep up with a puppy and the local shelters are full of dogs with great personalities who already have some training.