Breed Bias

puppyswag said:

And that sucks. I'm really sorry. But you know what also sucks? Not being able to leave my apartment or keep my own dog because of*irresponsible, bad owners. *Also, the pitbulls who I've noted were aggressive towards me were not owned by thugs, gangsters or overly macho jerks. They were owned by a father of two who adopted the perfect family dog, *a graduate students who proudly told me all about the sweetheart pit-mix she rescued, and an older man who had owned several dogs prior to his scottie-pit mix respectively.

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We have several "bully" breeds in our neighborhood (two look like staffordshire terriers, two like big brindle boxers, and one I know is an English mastiff). I have never seen them do anything remotely aggressive towards me or my dog. Most of the time they seem to barely notice us walk by.

The dogs I'm most nervous about when we walk? A lab mix, a springer spaniel, an Irish setter, and a golden retriever (mix?). In all instances, I consider the owner are responsible for the behavior of their dogs. IMO, a dog who snarls and lunges at passers-by should not be left unattended in the front yard (when a perfectly useable back yard exists).

Shell said:

Unfortunately, one bad experience with a dog of any breed can turn someone against that breed and it takes many many more good experiences to counter a single bad one; even if the good experiences are the more typical or true to form for the dog breed.

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It is very unfortunate that this is true. To show that this doesn't always happen, I'll share my bad experience. As a child, I was bit by a German shepherd puppy (I could write an entire post on what went wrong in that situation). I'm still nervous around large, unattended dogs, but if I could provide the right home, I'd have a GSD in a heartbeat.

jenz said:

Interesting thread. I have no real Pit experience but since adopting Lela last year, have definitely encountered Chow bias. She's not purebred, but even anti-BSL dog people we've run into will kind of grimace when I mention she's part Chow. The good news for Pits is that they are getting great press via responsible dog owners, advocacy groups, TV shows (Pit Boss, Pit Bulls & Parolees, etc) but Chows... jeesh! I have yet to encounter anyone who has anything nice to say about the breed. ANYONE.

Jen

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A woman in our neighborhood has a border collie and a chow that we often see on our walks. I'm always impressed at their amazingly good behavior - my goal is for my dog to be as well-behaved. Katie, my dog, stops in front the their house to look for the "pretty dogs."

We have several "bully" breeds in our neighborhood (two look like staffordshire terriers, two like big brindle boxers, and one I know is an English mastiff). I have never seen them do anything remotely aggressive towards me or my dog. Most of the time they seem to barely notice us walk by.

The dogs I'm most nervous about when we walk? A lab mix, a springer spaniel, an Irish setter, and a golden retriever (mix?). In all instances, I consider the owner are responsible for the behavior of their dogs. IMO, a dog who snarls and lunges at passers-by should not be left unattended in the front yard (when a perfectly useable back yard exists).

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I think that has a lot to do with where you live and thusly the type of people that own the dogs. I'm from Chicago, and I see more pit bull type dogs than any other. Statistically, that means that some of those dogs are going to have clueless owners If you use my very scientific theory that states most people are bleeping stupid, then even more. Since I live in the city proper, dogs have to interact more than they might normally have to. I have a supremely friendly dog that has awful leash manners. She sees a dog and she wants to play with them--and while I'm working on it, she's like a freakin' magnet for dogs that want to play--or are set off by a barking, jumping puppy. It's not necessarily that my dog is a DINOS, but it makes me really uncomfortably when owners of bully breeds or even itty bitty dogs come up to me with bad leash manners. However, it's significantly less scary (you have to agree) to have a 15 lbs dog that you don't know run up to your puppy than to have a 50+ lb bully breed that you don't know. Which happens. A lot. And that's because the majority of owners in my neighborhood have no business owning a dog, let alone one they need to be a breed ambassador for.



For me, when I'm walking even down my own street, at least fifty percent of the time my choices are walking by the off-leash chihuahua that will happily bite my sweet dog, or the supremely...I don't know if exuberant or aggressive pit bulls that pushed out an air conditioning unit and a screen to go bark and snarl at my neighbors. I get that they're dogs, and they might be property guarding or their prey drive was peaked or whatever, but for someone who is uncontrollably scared of most bully breeds, that scares the crap out of me.

I'm sure all the pit bulls you guys own are awesome dogs. Clearly, you're great owners if you've taken the time to get them trained in SAR, or as therapy dogs, or even just as fantastic family dogs. But honestly you are the minority. I've had very few experiences with owners like you. And the experiences I did have involved to ER visits (for a human and a dog), my own puppy getting attacked after talking with the owner for more than ten minutes about how dog friendly her pit was, and being pinned to a wall in a cafe that I used to frequent often--plus a few more incidents where Vienna's been snapped at.

I've NEVER had a bad experience with a dog before this. Labs, goldens, Irish setters, GSD, dobermans, huskies all have never so much as snapped at me or my puppy. I'm sure if there was a higher population of dogs that aren't pit looking dogs i my neighborhood, I'd experience it.

But there isn't. So as owners of maligned breed that is in danger of being legislated to death, what do you do about the serious problem of bad owners making your breed look exactly how the media portrays them?

trainingjunkie said:

What can I possibly do, as a MN owner of a maligned breed, about morons with pit bulls in Chicago?

And what would happen if the pit bulls all died tomorrow? Do you think the dirtballs would give up dog ownership?

Enforcing dog containment/leash laws and the other regulations that are already on the books would go a long ways to solving bad ownership problems. That still isn't magic. But neither is a breed ban.

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That's the thing. It's isn't just Chicago. It's New York. It's North Carolina. It's Iowa. Or Wisconsin, if you want to get a little closer to Minnesota. BSL has been proposed in all of these states/cities, and then some. I personally don't want to ever see a repeat of Denver or Ohio, and I don't even like pit bulls. Replace Chicago with Minneapolis. It's a big city with a maligned breeds owned by stupid people. It really isn't that far out of the realm of imagination that one day a breed ban could be something any owner of a bully breed has to face.

So do you wait until it becomes and issue in your state?

I don't mean to come off blame-y or anything. Are breed bans just really not as serious a problem that I think they are? I didn't even know BSL existed until I started researching pit bulls a few weeks ago.

If all pit bulls died tomorrow, I'm not going to lie: I'd be overwhelmingly relieved. I'm scared of them. Like, flashback having, panic attack occurring scared. Do I want some breed specific plague to be sent down from the heavens? Not really. But I don't care about pits as a breed. I care about them as dogs which is why the aftermath of BSL is heartbreaking to me.s. I'm really more about preventing BSL from even being an issue by taking appropriate measures to deal with the individual aggressive dogs.

What about if you are in a state where BSL is a serious issue? What do you do to combat the fact that it likely will come up again because of really bad owners? Or if you don't own a bully breed but need to protect your dog, what do you do?

trainingjunkie said:

I realize that it's everywhere.

Just tell me what you think I can do to stop some low-life from being a low-life.

I own well and responsibly. I'm just looking for what YOU think I can do to manage the awful people who just happen to own the same breed of dog that I got from the shelter.

Very nice touch though, saying you'd be relieved if my dog was dead tomorrow.

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You asked me how I felt. I'd be relieved. I don't want your dog to die tomorrow. I'd have the deepest sympathies for you as an owner if that happened. I'm not going to ever attempt to try and get your dog killed. However, when I say I'm scared of pit bulls, I mean that I cannot function if I perceive a threat from them. They've become a trigger for my post traumatic stress order. When I see one that I perceive as a threat, I'm immediately taken back to the trauma that occurred. During the three incidents that occurred specifically with me and my dog, I've had crippling panic attacks. I can't breath, I can't think, and my heart starts racing to the point where I convinced I'm going to die. I'd be extremely relieved if I could leave my apartment without having either of these things occurring. Like I said, lots of pit bulls in my neighborhood, so that doesn't happen. If there were no pit bulls the frequency of flashbacks and panic attacks would lessen. And I would be relieved. I'd also be relieved and have none of the guilt of wishing death upon a helpless animal, if all the pit bull were rounded up and put in their own separate state where there were lots of super fun dog parks and awesome owners, and all natural pet stores. Like having all pit bulls, including your dog, drop dead tomorrow, this is an extreme hyperbole and would never happen. I realize my fear and my disease is extreme and irrationally triggered.I'm working with a therapist and trainer who owns and works with bully breeds to get over my intense fear of them. But I am not the only one that is that scared of pit bulls. I just don't run and scream when I see one, because I shut down. I also don't make hateful, biased websites about them, even though I am biased. Nor do I try and propose ineffective legislation to get them killed, because I don't want them killed. I want a solution for dogs that are aggressive so other dogs can be safe.

I have a responsibility to keep my dog safe, including from my own extreme reactions to pits. So what I do is I cross streets when I see one. I leave parks and businesses. I make sure that if something happens to me or my ability to be a good owner, she goes to a loving, structured home. I hire an expensive trainer so I can exist around bully breeds and stop hating entire breeds. My responsibility is not to keep bully breeds from being public enemy number one. It's not your responsibility either.

But it would be nice to discuss what could potentially be done. There has to be something, right? Enforcing leash laws, like you said, is a good step. How do you do enforce those?

UF Girl said:

What exactly is a Pit bull type dog?

I have found most people have no clue what an APT looks like, what they see are muscular dogs that are brindle or gray and have no actual APT in them.

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I passed the 21 dog test thing that shows the various dogs mistaken for pit bulls. I'm not an expert at identifying dogs, though and I'm sure I have mis-identified dogs before. I generally have asked owners what breed their dogs are, and the 2/3 were owner identified pit. Aren't a lot of the dogs in the picture thing included in breed bans?

I have to say, I feel for people who own pit bulls. I can't imagine how it must feel to hear and read people say with a straight face that they wish your dog was dead. And for the most part it's socially acceptable for people to make statements like that. PTSD or not it makes me very sad. Seems like if the trigger for your disorder was something that wasn't already demonized by the public, you wouldn't be able to get away with saying you wish they were all dead, even in hyperbole. What a hurtful thing to say, for any reason.

Btw, not all pits are dog aggressive. And they are by far not the only breed affected by DA. DA and prey drive are just excuses people use to justify discrimination of a specific breed that is NOT uniquely affected.

As you can see, this is a far from aggressive dog, towards humans OR other dogs. Yet a ban would effect her as well as the dogs that are. It would also affect dogs that do have issues but are responsibly managed. It makes no sense and it's shameful to group all of these dogs together arbitrarily.

Roloni said:

You also have to be responsible ..and realize that you may need to seek the help from a mental health specialist.
Your fear of certain breeds of dogs is irrational..Perhaps You always see yourself as the victim ..and need to understand and see that there is no threat at all.

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I previously stated that I am getting help. But from my doctor's point of view? I'm not behaving irrationally. In a short span of time I had three very violent experiences. To not avoid bully breeds would be foolish on my part. I talked to several vets and trainers who have admitted there is a real problem with aggressive dogs being adopted out to inexperienced owners that have no business owning them. A vet at one of the best animal clinics in Chicago said that there's nothing wrong with exhibiting extra caution with unknown dogs of a specific breed. I've already been threaten three times and an animal professional told me to be cautious. That's a threat.

But okay, fine. I'm the mentally ill bully breed hater. Discount any opinion I have on dogs, especially yours. I'm sure you already have, and you should. I don't know your dogs.

What I do know is I'm scared of your breed and I'm not alone in my fear. In fact, I'm the least insidious person publicly expressing a negative opinion about pit bulls. I don't want your dogs to die as much as I wish they were nowhere near me.

What causes dead bullies is not me posting on forum and saying something untactful and expressing a strong dislike for a breed and then asking for solutions. What causes dead dogs are the people who can't control their dogs and the fact that there is nothing being done about it.

I'd like to clarify something that I've said in every single post from my first on: I don't want BSL to pass. It's stupid.

But it's not like BSL is some unknown rogue. It's passed in places. Not far off places. Denver. Cincinnati. It's a huge issue. I don't even like your dogs and I know it's a threat to them that needs to be stopped. It's your dog, not mine that's going to be destroyed if BSL is passed. So why is nothing being done?

kafkabeetle said:

I have to say, I feel for people who own pit bulls. I can't imagine how it must feel to hear and read people say with a straight face that they wish your dog was dead. And for the most part it's socially acceptable for people to make statements like that. PTSD or not it makes me very sad. Seems like if the trigger for your disorder was something that wasn't already demonized by the public, you wouldn't be able to get away with saying you wish they were all dead, even in hyperbole. What a hurtful thing to say, for any reason.

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First, I am sorry what I said was hurtful. Like I state above, I will take the mentally disturbed bully hater title as I deserve it. But I did mean it. I don't like pit bulls. I am scared of them. It's also not a "getting away with" issue. I'm not getting away with saying something hurtful on a forum--yet the politicians in Denver get away with destroying lots of innocent puppies? They are; they did it. They didn't apologize for it.

And that's kind of my point. People spew out hurtful things about bully breeds all the time. And then they act on them, which I won't, and the BSL card is played and more dogs actually die.

I said I would be relieved if pit bulls died. But there's someone out there right working with congressmen and women about making sure that they do. They don't want to have to cross the street when they see your dog. They don't want suggestions about how to enforce leash laws. They don't care about breed ambassadors. They don't want discussion.

They won't just apologize for saying something hurtful. They will just try and kill your dog.

So now that I've been told off about poor forum etiquette, what do you do about a real problem?

puppyswag said:

I previously stated that I am getting help. But from my doctor's point of view? I'm not behaving irrationally. In a short span of time I had three very violent experiences. To not avoid bully breeds would be foolish on my part. I talked to several vets and trainers who have admitted there is a real problem with aggressive dogs being adopted out to inexperienced owners that have no business owning them. A vet at one of the best animal clinics in Chicago said that there's nothing wrong with exhibiting extra caution with unknown dogs of a specific breed. I've already been threaten three times and an animal professional told me to be cautious. That's a threat.

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I also have PTSD. Your Doctor should not be telling you that you are behaving irrationally, but his goal -and yours- should be able to go out, see these dogs, and be okay. That's what the help is for: to disarm the triggers so your every day life is not negatively impacted, and so that you are not *behaving* irrationally in situations that do not call for it. Do you have reason for trauma? Yes. But PTSD, by its nature, is a reaction that does not fit the situation. So, yeah, ultimately you can't -and should not want to- make the things that trigger you to go away. The goal is to disarm them so they're not triggers, anymore. PTSD is rough. You have my sympathy.

That out of the way, I understand both why you're getting the reaction you are (you are the one here talking, not the congressmen in Denver) and that's making a lot of people who very, very dearly love their pets very, very upset - and justifiably and rationally so. The real problem is, most of these people out there, the ones making the laws, aren't fearful of the dogs. They're ignorant of the dogs, the situation and the fact that the owners who have pits now will find another dog to use to fight, to abuse, and to turn into an aggressive macho guard-dog that wants to take your face off. You can take pits out of the equation and you get another breed of dog being used to fill the same void. It happens in many areas now. Staffies, yeah, but also Huskies and guardian breeds (both mastiff breeds and LGDs) are the ones I'm most familiar with, but there are also the GSDs, the Dobermans and the Rotts that got this crap in the 70s. Yet, a mutt from the shelter can be, and have been, trained to fight or aggress at humans or other animals.

...Heck, it doesn't even have to be DOGS. Cockfighting is a major issue, and yes, they can do damage.

What do people do about it? Not support the law and hopefully educate people that there are ALWAYS going to be breeds of dogs used by nasty people for nasty things - like dogfighting and intimidation and/or hurting other people. Dogs, being dogs, will do what it takes to please their owners. As long as that is true, and until dogs learn to think for themselves and learn some morality, there are going to be people who use them for good -police dogs, arson dogs, SAR dogs, therapy dogs, herding, etc - and for bad: guarding, intimidating, and gambling. It just. Is what people do. Heck, it's the heart of the relationship between dogs and humans: Mutual benefit. We use them. We love them, some of us, but we use them.

The only solution is to crack down HARD on people who use innocent animals as weapons, and even that isn't a solution - take away guns, and they'll pick up a knife (or get an illegal gun, anyway).

People are doing quite a lot about that one. Or, rather, are trying very hard to do that. It's an uphill battle, but things ARE being done. Just not an in your face 'stop the pitbull ban', always, because that is just the tip of a much, much larger iceberg, and *just* stopping a pit ban won't stop the actual problem.

puppyswag said:

I previously stated that I am getting help. But from my doctor's point of view? I'm not behaving irrationally. In a short span of time I had three very violent experiences. To not avoid bully breeds would be foolish on my part. I talked to several vets and trainers who have admitted there is a real problem with aggressive dogs being adopted out to inexperienced owners that have no business owning them. A vet at one of the best animal clinics in Chicago said that there's nothing wrong with exhibiting extra caution with unknown dogs of a specific breed. I've already been threaten three times and an animal professional told me to be cautious. That's a threat.

But okay, fine. I'm the mentally ill bully breed hater. Discount any opinion I have on dogs, especially yours. I'm sure you already have, and you should. I don't know your dogs.

What I do know is I'm scared of your breed and I'm not alone in my fear. In fact, I'm the least insidious person publicly expressing a negative opinion about pit bulls. I don't want your dogs to die as much as I wish they were nowhere near me.

What causes dead bullies is not me posting on forum and saying something untactful and expressing a strong dislike for a breed and then asking for solutions. What causes dead dogs are the people who can't control their dogs and the fact that there is nothing being done about it.

I'd like to clarify something that I've said in every single post from my first on: I don't want BSL to pass. It's stupid.

But it's not like BSL is some unknown rogue. It's passed in places. Not far off places. Denver. Cincinnati. It's a huge issue. I don't even like your dogs and I know it's a threat to them that needs to be stopped. It's your dog, not mine that's going to be destroyed if BSL is passed. So why is nothing being done?



First, I am sorry what I said was hurtful. Like I state above, I will take the mentally disturbed bully hater title as I deserve it. But I did mean it. I don't like pit bulls. I am scared of them. It's also not a "getting away with" issue. I'm not getting away with saying something hurtful on a forum--yet the politicians in Denver get away with destroying lots of innocent puppies? They are; they did it. They didn't apologize for it.

And that's kind of my point. People spew out hurtful things about bully breeds all the time. And then they act on them, which I won't, and the BSL card is played and more dogs actually die.

I said I would be relieved if pit bulls died. But there's someone out there right working with congressmen and women about making sure that they do. They don't want to have to cross the street when they see your dog. They don't want suggestions about how to enforce leash laws. They don't care about breed ambassadors. They don't want discussion.

They won't just apologize for saying something hurtful. They will just try and kill your dog.

So now that I've been told off about poor forum etiquette, what do you do about a real problem?

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1. What the hell do you mean why is nothing being done? A lot is being done and all over people are fighting BSL through discussions like this one that inform, protests, speaking at city council meetings, etc.

2. Behind every harmful piece of legislation there are a lot of people who support it silently with their indifference. You didn't just say something hurtful. You said something that supports a very real and heartbreaking issue for many of us here. Honestly, I don't understand why your PTSD was even brought up or more importantly how you would love it if all pits were dead if you don't actually think pits should die as you claim. Unless you're just trying to upset people. If I was somehow wronged to the point of trauma by a black person or a gay person or a red-headed person, I might well have some PTSD issues, but I certainly wouldn't go around emphasizing how relieved I would be if all blacks/gays/gingers were dead. And I certainly wouldn't go on about it on a forum specifically advocating those people because it just isn't a useful thing to do.

3. There is a huge difference between exhibiting caution and wishing all of a certain breed were dead. Do you exhibit this much caution regarding cars, which regularly kill people and are therefore a very real threat? I would bet not. You just drive as safely as you can and steer clear of bad drivers on the road. But you don't stop driving or living around cars because of it, and you certainly don't ban them, or even suggest banning them, because that would be crazy and would not address the real problem because like pit bulls and every other breed that's been scapegoated in the past, cars aren't the problem, reckless people are.

The biggest thing I don't get about all this BSL bullsh*t is that regardless of how you feel about these dogs, if the real concern is public safety, bans would not even address that problem effectively. It makes me crazy. The only thing that will address the safety issues inherent in owning aggressive animals (under the assumption that it is indeed a problem that requires addressing) is legislation that targets aggressive dogs of all breeds. That would be a whole lot more complicated, but certainly more effective than killing the good AND bad of a specific breed while leaving the good and bad of every other breed alone. How does a person justify this in their mind?? All I can imagine is that one must severely misconceptualize the nature of all dogs to hold an opinion as oversimplified and therefore useless as that.

Anyone that thinks to themselves..... But what can I do??????

I give you the State of Florida.........

1) In the late 1980's local communities were starting to try to pass breed bans....

So the dog community got together and I give you Florida Statute 767.14

767.14 Additional local restrictions authorized.--Nothing in this act shall limit any local government from placing further restrictions or additional requirements on owners of dangerous dogs or developing procedures and criteria for the implementation of this act, provided that no such regulation is specific to breed and that the provisions of this act are not lessened by such additional regulations or requirements. This section shall not apply to any local ordinance adopted prior to October 1, 1990.

We changed history in 1990...... By adding a SINGLE statement to State Law.... No corporations, no powerful lobbyists, etc.... Just people.... And I take a share of credit for this..... It was 257 miles from the house I owned back then to the Holiday Inn down the road from the State Capital. It is 254 miles from my current house and the State Capital. I cannot tell you how many times I have made the drive. I know every inch of road and can drive it in my sleep. In fact I practically have.

So in 1990 some regular people got together and convinced Legislators to see the common sense of our point of view. It became against State Law to enact a breed ban in the State of Florida. A couple of communities tested it in court. They lost...

When it all shook out there was only a single hold out.... Miami/Dade County.....They passed their ban prior to the revision in the State Law.... So they were grandfathered in.....

It has been 22 years...... And it became pretty much an accepted fact that Miami's ban was going to be a forever thorn in the side of the Dog community in Florida.

Enter Dahlia Canes...... Just a woman that got tired of seeing good dogs destroyed just because of their breed.

Dahlia started by herself with just desire.... It has taken years... She has been attacked in the press and nearly attacked in person... But she kept going......She was determined to overturn Miami's breed ban.

Now Thousands and thousands stand beside her.

We thought we had the votes in the Commission to overturn it this past winter. But some sideways manouvering kept it from being voted on.

But Dahlia has a card or two up her sleeve. The group led by her managed to get the commissioners to put it to the people. I direct you to banner at the bottom of my posts.
On August 14th the people of Miami are going to end breed bans in Florida once and for all.....

And all this started with one person....