Breed Bias

7308 Views 79 Replies 29 Participants Last post by JohnnyBandit, Jul 4, 2012

CandJHarris

Discussion Starter · Jul 1, 2012

Part of my family is absolutely freaking out that we are keeping one of the pit bull puppies that we rescued a couple of weeks ago. My parents are the absolute worst. They buy into every myth they hear, and I couldn't help but laugh the other day when my mama kept going on and on about how "they all turn and when they bite you their jaws lock, blah, blah, blah..." We live next door to my parents, so I've made a point to take Scarlett with me pretty much every time I've been over there in the last week. I've made it my mission to change their minds. When I told my mom what my plan was, she kind of jokingly said that the first time she "growls or snaps" at someone she'd be reaching for her gun. When I asked her why she hadn't brought out the gun for my sister's little yappy mutt that bark, growl, and snaps at EVERYBODY, she shut it down.

We stopped by my sister's house today too (she lives on the other side of mom and dad) and was talking to my brother-in-law about Scarlett when he asked if she was a pit. When I said yes he kind of winced and said "Ooooh." I asked him why he responded that way he just said, "I just don't like them." So I asked him, "Have you ever met a real, live pit bull in person?" Of course his answer was no, but that he was afraid of them. It was the first honest answer I've heard out of anyone. So I assured him there would be no reason for him to be afraid of her, now or ever and asked that he at least give her a chance.

When we decided to keep Scarlett I knew there was going to be some challenges because of her breed, but it really bugs me that my family is so ignorant about the breed. I ask myself all the time how I ended up such an open minded person when the rest of my family is so prejudice.

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megara

· #21 · Jul 1, 2012

2

Personally I would never get a pitbull (or a mastiff, rottweiler, wolf/wolf mix, etc.). You see on the news all the time that the family pet, that has never shown aggression before, suddenly attacking/killing babies. Of course there are exceptions, but why take a chance? Especially if there is a child in the home?

This is a extreme example: I like bears. I don't think we should kill them all, but I would never have a pet bear because they are dangerous.

A lot of people defend pitbulls by saying, "the dog on the little rascals was a pitbull..."
Take a look at these two pictures:

They may both be pitbulls, but I think its pretty safe to say that they have changed a lot since then. And as far as "human-aggression" vs. "dog-aggression", whose to say one couldn't lead to the other? And besides, why would you want a dog that was very aggressive towards other dogs?

Here's a Q&A from dogsbite.org:

Q: Do pit bulls bite more than other dogs?

Depending upon the community in which you live and the ratio of pit bulls within it, yes and no. But whether a pit bull bites more or less than another dog breed is not the point. The issue is the acute damage a pit bull inflicts when it does choose to bite. The pit bull's "hold and shake" bite style causes severe bone and muscle damage, often inflicting permanent and disfiguring injury. Moreover, once a pit bull starts an attack, firearm intervention may be the only way to stop it.

When analyzing dog bite statistics, it is important to understand what constitutes a bite. A single bite -- recorded and used in dog bite statistics -- is a bite that "breaks the skin." One bite by a poodle that leaves two puncture wounds is recorded the same way as a pit bull mauling, which can constitute hundreds of puncture wounds and extensive soft tissue loss. Despite the "quagmire" of dog bite statistics, pit bulls are leading bite counts across U.S. cities and counties.14

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bgmacaw

· #22 · Jul 1, 2012

JohnnyBandit said:
Human aggressive dogs were always culled out of fighting lines.

With mistreatment and bad training, the average pit bull (or almost any dog breed) can be made human aggressive. There are several threads here where people using certain training techniques are on their way to creating a human aggressive dog from one that's eager to please but doesn't understand why they get alpha rolls, jowl grabs, pin downs, kicks/prods and confusing tch-es. When the human aggressive training is intentional, it can be even more 'effective'.

BTW, the episode of DogTown that featured the Michael Vick dogs was very good (it's available on NetFlix for those interested). It shows how dogs can overcome previous negative handling.

Shell

· #23 · Jul 1, 2012

megara said:
Personally I would never get a pitbull (or a mastiff, rottweiler, wolf/wolf mix, etc.). You see on the news all the time that the family pet, that has never shown aggression before, suddenly attacking/killing babies. Of course there are exceptions, but why take a chance? Especially if there is a child in the home?

Except that many times, the dog on the news isn't even an APBT. I've seen Boxers, Bulldogs, Cane corsos etc all called "pit bulls" in the news. There was even a case where where a girl was bit by two dogs and the news showed photos of them (which they don't always do) and both dogs were obvious shepherd mixes. Add in the fact that a lot of time the dog HAS shown aggression, or been punished for growling so they jump right to biting, or the "kid" was a teen that was taunting the dog by throwing rocks and the list goes on. ANY dog can bite, a child and especially an infant should never be left alone with any dog. Even a "leave me alone" nip from a large dog can harm a child, it doesn't mean the dog is human aggressive and it doesn't mean the dog wouldn't be completely safe around adults or older kids

This is a extreme example: I like bears. I don't think we should kill them all, but I would never have a pet bear because they are dangerous.

A lot of people defend pitbulls by saying, "the dog on the little rascals was a pitbull..."
Take a look at these two pictures:

They may both be pitbulls, but I think its pretty safe to say that they have changed a lot since then. And as far as "human-aggression" vs. "dog-aggression", whose to say one couldn't lead to the other? And besides, why would you want a dog that was very aggressive towards other dogs?

The "whose to say" is vets, behaviorists and people experience in working with dogs. DA and HA are different issues. A dog might be both, but one doesn't lead to the other. Having a dog aggressive dog isn't that bad. Many can be managed quite well, even to the point of being able to live with other dogs (not being left alone of course) and they enjoy all kinds of dog activities without other dogs.

Here's a Q&A from dogsbite.org:

Q: Do pit bulls bite more than other dogs?

Depending upon the community in which you live and the ratio of pit bulls within it, yes and no. But whether a pit bull bites more or less than another dog breed is not the point. The issue is the acute damage a pit bull inflicts when it does choose to bite. The pit bull's "hold and shake" bite style causes severe bone and muscle damage, often inflicting permanent and disfiguring injury. Moreover, once a pit bull starts an attack, firearm intervention may be the only way to stop it.

When analyzing dog bite statistics, it is important to understand what constitutes a bite. A single bite -- recorded and used in dog bite statistics -- is a bite that "breaks the skin." One bite by a poodle that leaves two puncture wounds is recorded the same way as a pit bull mauling, which can constitute hundreds of puncture wounds and extensive soft tissue loss. Despite the "quagmire" of dog bite statistics, pit bulls are leading bite counts across U.S. cities and counties.14

That source is full of crap. Their statistics are horrible and they have a huge bias. There are safe ways to stop a dog attack that don't involve guns (and don't come with the risk of shooting the victim!). Any large dog can cause similar damage to an animal or person. Temperament tests have shown pit bulls LESS likely to bite than a number of popular "family friendly" breeds and a dog that is taught bite inhibition won't hurt someone if they accidentally touch teeth to skin (like grabbing for a tennis ball or a tug toy)

I have put my comments in bold.

megara

· #24 · Jul 1, 2012

I don't want to start a fight on here, and I can tell that my point of view certainly wont be very popular on this forum.

Also I am not meaning to offend pitbull owners. I do not blame the dog, I blame the human that bred him that way.

HollowHeaven

· #25 · Jul 1, 2012

megara said:
I never once used profanity in my post, and I hope that you can get your point across without having to resort to that too.

As for dogsbite.org, its pretty hard to be "noneducational" when they have references for every fact they say.

For me, using profanity is more natural than not using it. I didn't put it in there to get a point across or to show anger, so don't worry about it.

And anything that can't give information without bias is not a good source of information.

HollowHeaven

· #26 · Jul 1, 2012

megara said:
I don't want to start a fight on here, and I can tell that my point of view certainly wont be very popular on this forum.

Also I am not meaning to offend pitbull owners. I do not blame the dog, I blame the human that bred him that way.

But you don't seem to understand that they're just dogs. ANY dog is capable of biting and harming.
Most of the dogs I've personally been bitten by, been threatened by or had my pets threatened by or attacked by have been Collies, Golden Retrievers, Labs, Poodles and chihuahuas. I've never once had a rottweiler, pit, mastiff, etcetc, or any other breed on that site so much as look at me cross eyed.
Any INDIVIDUAL DOG is capable of harming people. If you don't blame the dogs, then why are you speaking out against them as a whole?

Shell

· #27 · Jul 1, 2012

megara said:
I never once used profanity in my post, and I hope that you can get your point across without having to resort to that too.

As for dogsbite.org, its pretty hard to be "noneducational" when they have references for every fact they say.

References mean nothing when they are selectively chosen to promote an agenda and when the references themselves are unreliable and/or biased.

Pit bulls scored better on temperament testing than 121 other dog breeds, including Golden Retrievers.
One of many references

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JohnnyBandit

· #28 · Jul 1, 2012

megara said:
Personally I would never get a pitbull (or a mastiff, rottweiler, wolf/wolf mix, etc.). You see on the news all the time that the family pet, that has never shown aggression before, suddenly attacking/killing babies. Of course there are exceptions, but why take a chance? Especially if there is a child in the home?

This is a extreme example: I like bears. I don't think we should kill them all, but I would never have a pet bear because they are dangerous.

A lot of people defend pitbulls by saying, "the dog on the little rascals was a pitbull..."
Take a look at these two pictures:

They may both be pitbulls, but I think its pretty safe to say that they have changed a lot since then. And as far as "human-aggression" vs. "dog-aggression", whose to say one couldn't lead to the other? And besides, why would you want a dog that was very aggressive towards other dogs?

Here's a Q&A from dogsbite.org:

Q: Do pit bulls bite more than other dogs?

Depending upon the community in which you live and the ratio of pit bulls within it, yes and no. But whether a pit bull bites more or less than another dog breed is not the point. The issue is the acute damage a pit bull inflicts when it does choose to bite. The pit bull's "hold and shake" bite style causes severe bone and muscle damage, often inflicting permanent and disfiguring injury. Moreover, once a pit bull starts an attack, firearm intervention may be the only way to stop it.

When analyzing dog bite statistics, it is important to understand what constitutes a bite. A single bite -- recorded and used in dog bite statistics -- is a bite that "breaks the skin." One bite by a poodle that leaves two puncture wounds is recorded the same way as a pit bull mauling, which can constitute hundreds of puncture wounds and extensive soft tissue loss. Despite the "quagmire" of dog bite statistics, pit bulls are leading bite counts across U.S. cities and counties.14

I hope you do not.... Drive in a car, take a bath, cook, get near bees, swim, ride a bicycle, roller blade, etc.

Because all of those things are FAR more dangerous than dogs.

Pomeranians have killed people. Labs kill people. A Lab just destroyed a little girls face near me. All dogs are capable of killing.

JohnnyBandit

· #29 · Jul 1, 2012

bgmacaw said:
With mistreatment and bad training, the average pit bull (or almost any dog breed) can be made human aggressive. There are several threads here where people using certain training techniques are on their way to creating a human aggressive dog from one that's eager to please but doesn't understand why they get alpha rolls, jowl grabs, pin downs, kicks/prods and confusing tch-es. When the human aggressive training is intentional, it can be even more 'effective'.

BTW, the episode of DogTown that featured the Michael Vick dogs was very good (it's available on NetFlix for those interested). It shows how dogs can overcome previous negative handling.

Now you are talking about treatment. But that part of your original post, said "from aggressive fighting lines".
That is what I was commenting to and the reason I only bolded that part.

Now you are saying that it doesn't matter where they came from. How they are treated is the cause.

And I am not talking about the dog town pits. I am talking about the ones that Bad Rap took. All the ones with CGCs, therapy dogs, etc.

JohnnyBandit

· #30 · Jul 1, 2012

BTW I am loosely associated with a group that is pulling dogs from animal control and training them to be service dogs for our veterans coming back from the middle east.

We are EXCLUSIVELY using pit bulls. And we are not the only agency doing that. The reason is that shelters are full of healthy young pit bulls, with great temperaments, and the aptitude and drive to move on to being service dogs.

Shell

· #31 · Jul 1, 2012 (Edited)

Find the Pit Bull

This photo spread is a great example of why media reports and bite statistics are typically very unreliable when it comes to "pit bulls"--- only 1 of the 25 breeds shown is an APBT.

People with nearly any of the breeds in that photo collection will sometimes get the same kind of comments and reactions as owners of APBT/ASTs. My own dog's breed is shown as #6 on that link; in person no one thinks he looks pure APBT but I've had people ask if he's a Rottie (wha??)

JohnnyBandit said:
BTW I am loosely associated with a group that is pulling dogs from animal control and training them to be service dogs for our veterans coming back from the middle east.

We are EXCLUSIVELY using pit bulls. And we are not the only agency doing that. The reason is that shelters are full of healthy young pit bulls, with great temperaments, and the aptitude and drive to move on to being service dogs.

That is really cool. I know one service-dog-in-training pit bull. He's the sweetest big baby around and for being just under 1 year old, wonderfully trained. He was from a rescue litter (mama pit gave birth right after being pulled from a shelter, pups and mom were fostered soon after). I've met pit bull drug detection dogs in training and know of some being used by Customs for luggage sniffing.
For psychiatric service dogs, I think their velcro nature can work really well; they are just sooo happy to be close to their person.

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Henryr10

· #32 · Jul 1, 2012

JohnnyBandit said:
Pomeranians have killed people.

LOL! Sorry Johnny!
That just creates a weird Monty Python image in my head!

CptJack

· #33 · Jul 1, 2012

Henryr10 said:
LOL! Sorry Johnny!
That just creates a weird Monty Python image in my head!

There was, seriously, a pomeranian that killed an infant. Link to article. Dogs are animals with teeth. Any animal with teeth can bite, and can do damage. Granted, in this case it's 'adult supervising' fail but - how many children bitten by dogs ISN"T because of parenting fail? People decide their dogs are entirely safe and could never hurt anyone, and crap happens - like walking away for 'just a minute'. Funnily enough, people with dogs like pits and rotts are less likely to have that kind of mindset than people with poms and labs.

sharky

· #34 · Jul 1, 2012

Hopefully you people shut that ignorant person up. Why even BE on a dog forum if you hate dogs you know nothing about? I've never heard of a dog (that wasn't really old or injured or ill in some way) that attacked someone, and never had a problem with aggression beforehand(unless it was PROTECTING someone that desperately needed protection). That just doesn't happen. It's made up, total bullshit. My pit would NEVER bite someone, and I can GUARANTEE YOU THAT. Even if you made it obvious he scared you, he would only push up against you and LICK you to death... I am at a loss of words for that person's stupidity.

sharky

· #35 · Jul 1, 2012

http://www.godvine.com/Rescued-Pitbull-Saves-a-War-Veteran-From-Suicide-1109.html

Watch the video. Yeah, that first dog really looks like it's about to rip his face off.

Shell

· #36 · Jul 1, 2012

sharky said:
Hopefully you people shut that ignorant person up. Why even BE on a dog forum if you hate dogs you know nothing about? I've never heard of a dog (that wasn't really old or injured or ill in some way) that attacked someone, and never had a problem with aggression beforehand(unless it was PROTECTING someone that desperately needed protection). That just doesn't happen. It's made up, total bullshit. My pit would NEVER bite someone, and I can GUARANTEE YOU THAT. Even if you made it obvious he scared you, he would only push up against you and LICK you to death... I am at a loss of words for that person's stupidity.

I totally agree on the prejudging a large group of breeds thing.
But...while your pit (like any dog) may be exceedingly unlikely to bite someone, there is really no way to say he would never and no way to guarantee it. Overconfidence in the good nature of a dog can get someone hurt when it leads to carelessness and even something as simple as a dog being injured can make the sweetest, nicest dog bite (like the "old, injured or ill" dogs you mention)

I can say that my dog would not bite under normal conditions, I can say that he is in no way aggressive (neither human nor dog aggressive) but if push came to shove, he is capable of biting. Any dog with teeth is capable of biting and every dog has his limits.

I'm not trying to say you would be careless with your dog, just pointing out that ALL dogs should be supervised (around kids, strangers and such) and all of them should be treated carefully when they are sick or injured.

sharky

· #37 · Jul 1, 2012

I truly can guarantee my dog wouldn't bite a person under conditions that the person WASN'T doing any harm to him. My dog does exceptionally well with strangers, and the only thing that needs to be watched with him, is that he tends to jump and THAT can scare people, but it's not aggressive and it probably wouldn't seriously injure anyone. Although it might really upset a young child, but even then they still probably wouldn't be left majorly scarred or anything. I truly believe my dog would never, ever bite someone (like I said, as long as that someone wasn't attacking him or obviously hurting him in some way) and I'll stand by that. If I need to post a youtube video of "Sharky and a million strangers" to prove my point, I will.

CptJack

· #38 · Jul 1, 2012 (Edited)

sharky said:
I truly can guarantee my dog wouldn't bite a person under conditions that the person WASN'T doing any harm to him. My dog does exceptionally well with strangers, and the only thing that needs to be watched with him, is that he tends to jump and THAT can scare people, but it's not aggressive and it probably wouldn't seriously injure anyone. Although it might really upset a young child, but even then they still probably wouldn't be left majorly scarred or anything. I truly believe my dog would never, ever bite someone (like I said, as long as that someone wasn't attacking him or obviously hurting him in some way) and I'll stand by that. If I need to post a youtube video of "Sharky and a million strangers" to prove my point, I will.

It isn't a case of needing to prove a point, it's that sometimes strangers? Do unpredictable things. SOmetimes? Outside influences come into play. 100% faith your dog will never, ever, bite to the point of not taking precautions is foolish, and dangerous. You can have faith in your DOG all you want, but don't forget about things like redirected aggression, fear, pain, another dog being aggressive or someone being an idiot. You can't control all those outside influences or other people, but you CAN control your DOG and keep him from becoming another dog-bite statistic. As a responsible owner you should WANT to do that.

My dog has never been anything but friendly, gentle, and kind. That doesn't mean I leave him unsupervised with kids, cats, strangers, or outside. Shit happens - kinda like we were talking about those rescuer relatives of yours who left the cats and dogs running together, because they had '100% faith' the dogs and cats would be fine together. They weren't. Responsibility would have been, I think we agreed, safety-measures and supervision.

Things happen. Dogs are animals. Forgetting that is dangerous. It's not a disparging remark on your dog to say that absolute confidence that a dog will NEVER, under any circumstance bite, isn't a good idea.

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sharky

· #39 · Jul 1, 2012

Which reminds me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUV1oTciznE

(Yes, another pit named Sharky. Not my pit)

sharky

· #40 · Jul 1, 2012

Trust me, I AM a responsible owner. Don't assume that I'm not. I'd never leave my dog alone with a small child, and he's already had encounters with unusually creepy people doing strange things like one man putting his hands in the crack of the window of my car (I walked up on him doing this) and Sharky was doing nothing but licking this guys face. As much as YOU believe that my dog could bite someone (without being seriously provoked) I stand my ground and will continue to argue this point. It's not because I'm stupid or irresponsible, I've worked with dogs my entire life-particularly guard and protection dogs(and seriously aggressive dogs). I know them, and I know them well. But the dog I have now, would shatter any belief of 'EVERY dog can and will bite a stranger under special circumstances' (NOT including him being harmed)

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