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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Several weeks ago I inadvertently stumbled upon a group of dog owners that had signed up for “Street Safety“ classes led by a supposedly “certified” trainer. Too bad that the certification in question was awarded by Brad Pattison*. A man with no formal education on the subject and whose methods have been criticized by several organizations including the IPDTA.

"Because dogs don't listen when they are excited."

That's what the woman leading an unfortunate group of dog owners said when asked 'why don't you just teach the dog to sit?' as a solution to a dog that jumps up during greetings.

But isn't that why we train our dogs, so they LISTEN? Even when excited?

But let's go back to the beginning.

On our usual Saturday walk to our off-leash park, I see a group by the baseball field moving around. From the chaotic and haphazard nature of their movements it was clear that these people had no idea what they were doing. The dogs were being manhandled in every possible way.

As soon as I got close to hear the leader of the group, I recognized the unique combination of misinformation and alarmist stories. There was no doubt, this woman was one of those Pattison clones. I had unknowingly walked into the hilariously named 'Street Safety Seminar" being led by a Brad Pattison “graduate” C.E.T.** A woman in neon pink jacket that was 2 sizes too small. I would later learn her name.***

I was already familiar with the error filled rhetoric and violent style of Brad Pattison but seeing it in action was something else.

Back to the dogs that don't listen when they are excited.

So, since a Pattison trainer can't get an excited dog to SIT, what did she suggest?
Shoving the dog downwards and to "hit them like a drum" (direct quote) when they try to jump.

So, her advice: Don't train 'em. Hit 'em. Why? She told us that “Force is the only language dogs understand” which is direct quote from Pattison.

This was only one small sample of the idiocies perpetrated on the unsuspecting group of novice owners, most of her advice on other issues was equally foolhardy and counter productive.

She took a small dog to show the group how to handle a dog that won’t recall. She started pulling and he put on the brakes. At this moment I could no longer keep quiet when I shouted that by pulling the dog she was engaging his opposition reflex, she looked but pretended not to hear. However this little Yorkie had more spunk that she expected, a few moments later she changed to a dog she COULD manhandle. That’s how the demonstration ended.

One segment included how to walk with the dog and she suggested to “Karate chop” the leash when it got tight, and to alleviate any concerns she told the crowd, “it’s not the force, it’s the speed”. I guess she never took physics. Force is mass times acceleration which means that fast IS hard. She took the hapless Yorkie for another round (revenge?) and chopped so hard (I mean fast) that he was sent flying off to the side.

She followed this up with an “attention” exercise. For those not familiar with the Pattison method, this is where he runs with a leashed dog into a tree or lamppost, changing directions at the last possible moment. If the dog is lucky it is only jerked back when the obstacle comes between it and its handler, a few of the dogs were rammed right into the trees.

A curious thing is that she (the instructor) recounts the same apocryphal stories about the dangers of ‘treats’ making dogs aggressive that Pattison has told hundreds of times. Besides being blatant lies, she also tells them from a first person perspective as if she had witnessed them.

After this the crowd moved to another location where she took a poor Labrador type dog and started working the leash again. In less that a minute the dog was jerked back about a dozen times. Several times his from paws came off the ground. I was dumbstruck that any owner could stand by while their dog suffered such treatment. And even more so to see that all the owners were treating their dogs in the same manner.

Interestingly, she would ‘celebrate’ quite loudly each time she jerked the dog. This may have served a dual purpose; to prevent the dog from shutting down and to distract those who witness the abuse.

The class ended with a so-called “agility” course. This was another excuse to drag their dogs around over obstacles. This time she took another dog (chihuahua mix?) and hanged it as she tried to pull it over a large log. The rest of the owners also tried to pull their dogs over the logs, park tables and benches with various levels of success. Again, it seemed that they were all ignorant of the opposition reflex.

And that’s what takes place in a ‘Street Safety” class. I saw little safety for the dogs, zero training and a lot of misinformation. A lot of tucked tails, backswept ears, gaze aversion, yawning, and licking; some dogs even downed after being jerked. All their attempts at appeasement were ignored. It’s a tragedy that TV has given Pattison and his trainer cronies such air of respectability and competence that no one in the group stood up for their dog. With good marketing and appealing memes they’ve convinced thousands of people that violence is the way to train.

* Brad Pattison is a Canadian trainer and host of a show called ‘At the end of my leash, aka In the Dog house’ His methods are similar to those of Cesar Millan but without any of his likeable qualities. He takes an even more extreme use of punishment and show an over-preoccupation with “dominance” He also seems overly obsessed that dogs are trying to subvert him to become (in his words) “alpha” A few years ago the IPDTA came out with a position statement against his methods.

** In Canada, the C.E.T. symbol us legally protected for use by certified members of the Canadian Council of Technician and Technologists. Pattison has no more right to give out "CET"s anymore than he has the right to bestow PhDs.

*** I’m not sure about the rules regarding names but she has a website advertising her shoddy services.
 

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Ive only watched Brad a few times and I would not say he is anything like Ceasar. Abusive and just as likely to tell someone their dog misbehaves because they themselves are having a relationship prob than actually train the dog
 

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The only thing that I can say as a trainer who uses/has used many physical corrections on many dogs that their is RARELY anything that Brad does or says that I agree with:eek:

I cannot bare to watch or listen to him other than out of extreme queer curiousity, self torture, and education of all that is possible ...in terms of education. I often find myself having to take a deep breath to fight off the tension that he brings to me in watching him interact with both humans and dogs.:eek:

But now that I think of it in terms of being observant and open minded I think many people think the same of me depending on ones perspective and agenda.:eek:: I cannot (can) imagine how some people might reflex/think about me sizing up a prong collar for dog abc>xyz.:eek:
 

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I see NO comparison between Brad and Ceasar. Some of Brad's techniques are justified but some are not. I'm starting to really rethink the treat training for instance, I was trying to do some training with my dog yesterday and didn't have any treats this time (I always use treats) and she did absolutely NOTHING for me without the treats. I'm starting to really think I have to always bribe my dog to listen the older she is getting. That's just not rational to have to have treats everywhere I go. I'm not saying I'm never going to give her treats but for training purposes I don't know anymore
 

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I see NO comparison between Brad and Ceasar. Some of Brad's techniques are justified but some are not. I'm starting to really rethink the treat training for instance, I was trying to do some training with my dog yesterday and didn't have any treats this time (I always use treats) and she did absolutely NOTHING for me without the treats. I'm starting to really think I have to always bribe my dog to listen the older she is getting. That's just not rational to have to have treats everywhere I go. I'm not saying I'm never going to give her treats but for training purposes I don't know anymore
Works the same for correction based training also...you should'nt have to give a dog corrections all the time... Most often it can be a matter of how one uses/processes the method along with any tools or incentives that results in success or failure in how often someone NEEDS to reintroduce the specific stimuli.:) Sometimes it can be most effective depending on the circumstances to use all four quads to operant conditioning:) Depending on how you use them (or do not use them);)
 

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Discussion Starter #6
One thing about Pattison which was shared by his trainer here, was that they were completely obvious to the dog.

It didn't seem to matter that the actions often cause fear and avoidance on the dog - they've chosen their plan of attack and the dog no longer matters.
 

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I see NO comparison between Brad and Ceasar. Some of Brad's techniques are justified but some are not. I'm starting to really rethink the treat training for instance, I was trying to do some training with my dog yesterday and didn't have any treats this time (I always use treats) and she did absolutely NOTHING for me without the treats. I'm starting to really think I have to always bribe my dog to listen the older she is getting. That's just not rational to have to have treats everywhere I go. I'm not saying I'm never going to give her treats but for training purposes I don't know anymore
This is a problem in the method of the trainer (just like with corrections) not in the method of training...
Treats during training a new behaviour need to be removed from a lure asap.
For example:
Teaching the puppy to sit
Using a lure (food in fingers) over the head of the puppy gets a sit. You do it two or three times only. Then you do the EXACT same movement SANS treat, treat is in your pocket or somewhere off your body. You mark the sit with a click or a "yessss" and THEN deliver the treat. Then you gradually shift the hand signal so it's not so close to the dog etc. Still rewarding from elsewhere. When you can get say, "sit" ten times with just the signal, rewarding from elsewhere....
THEN you go to variable reinforcement, which means sit/treat, sit/praise, sit/treat, sit/treat, sit praise, sit/praise, sit/treat. The faster you get off the sit=treat and go to variable the stronger the behaviour becomes.
So, having a dog go from treats to other rewards or none depends on the trainers ability and understanding of how reinforcement works. It has nothing to do with the dog or the food itself.

Brad says that treats CREATES aggression. He's an idiot.
 

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One thing about Pattison which was shared by his trainer here, was that they were completely obvious to the dog.

It didn't seem to matter that the actions often cause fear and avoidance on the dog - they've chosen their plan of attack and the dog no longer matters.
They are training the dog but the dog doesn't matter? Hm, something wrong with that theory.

I have seen videos of Brad and can say without hesitation, I have NO respect for him. I don't see how a dog could gain respect for him either but then, the dog doesn't matter. :(
 

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My stock Pattison answer is always the same. I watched one of his on street videos with no sound on and I did not have the slightest idea what he was doing because he hauled off and cuffed the dog for absolutely nothing I could see from just viewing the video. I thought, if I a big time dog trainer (in my mind only) had no idea what he wanted maybe the dog didn't either.
 

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So since I'm not able to sleep, I decided to google this Brad Pattison. Went to the page and the first thing I read was "If a puppy on a leash doesn't want to walk, don't coax it. Put the leash on it and MOVE!" Wtf?? You want me to drag my dog around. I had this image in my head of the little yellow lab puppy who's picture was next to the quote, with all four on the floor looking up and going "HELP!" I mean I'll admit I have dragged Mandie before but only because she decided to stop in the middle of the road (stupid city and it's stupid no crosswalks) and she's not small enough to just heft over my shoulder. But really teaching a puppy by dragging it? The only time I drag anything is furniture when it's too heavy for me to move and hubby is not around. My dog isn't furniture!

The rest of the quotes told me that my dog only sit/stays for her food and not for me (which may be true but she's got her eyes on me the whole time watching for the release command) and I should put obstacles in her way to make the walk more fun for both of us. I'm a clutz walking a scent hound! This is not good advice. We could end up in the bitterly cold Sacramento River. I have to keep Mandie focused during the walk other wise we're following her nose around, which we do sometimes when we venture off the trail for like 2 minutes and then it's right back on the trail.

I can just here what my mother would have to say about this guy. My mom is not a dog person per se, but she respects animals and has been known to get a little protective of them. I swear if mother, as a non-dog owner, heard someone say force is the only language they understand, she'd probably belt them and say, "whoops thought you were talking bout yourself."
 

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This is a problem in the method of the trainer (just like with corrections) not in the method of training...
Treats during training a new behaviour need to be removed from a lure asap.
For example:
Teaching the puppy to sit
Using a lure (food in fingers) over the head of the puppy gets a sit. You do it two or three times only. Then you do the EXACT same movement SANS treat, treat is in your pocket or somewhere off your body. You mark the sit with a click or a "yessss" and THEN deliver the treat. Then you gradually shift the hand signal so it's not so close to the dog etc. Still rewarding from elsewhere. When you can get say, "sit" ten times with just the signal, rewarding from elsewhere....
THEN you go to variable reinforcement, which means sit/treat, sit/praise, sit/treat, sit/treat, sit praise, sit/praise, sit/treat. The faster you get off the sit=treat and go to variable the stronger the behaviour becomes.
So, having a dog go from treats to other rewards or none depends on the trainers ability and understanding of how reinforcement works. It has nothing to do with the dog or the food itself.

Brad says that treats CREATES aggression. He's an idiot.


She sits on command always and usually stays when I tell her to until I say "ok" but the other day she was so stubborn at doing the down and would for nothing do a stay/down, she would go down and if I tried to keep her down there was no way she was going to listen to me being forceful so she just started rolling around on the grass. I should of gave up earlier because it ended in frustration. I do have clickers, although I'm not a huge clicker fan I'm ready to use them. We were also down at the park where she runs off leash and I'm thinking she wasn't sure what I was doing training commands for since the park to her is always off leash fun, do you think that could be another reason?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
So since I'm not able to sleep, I decided to google this Brad Pattison. Went to the page and the first thing I read was "If a puppy on a leash doesn't want to walk, don't coax it. Put the leash on it and MOVE!" Wtf?? You want me to drag my dog around. I had this image in my head of the little yellow lab puppy who's picture was next to the quote, with all four on the floor looking up and going "HELP!" I mean I'll admit I have dragged Mandie before but only because she decided to stop in the middle of the road (stupid city and it's stupid no crosswalks) and she's not small enough to just heft over my shoulder. But really teaching a puppy by dragging it? The only time I drag anything is furniture when it's too heavy for me to move and hubby is not around. My dog isn't furniture!
I really wonder why he's into dogs at all, he seems to have no respect for their physical being as we see by his use of harsh physical punishment and no interest in what they feel as we see by his recommendation regarding puppies.

The event you recall is one where these was an urgent need to move. During emergencies we do what we need to do for or to the dog. But dragging a puppy around when a tidbit and some happy talk will do is simply not justified. The problem is that Pattison's core philosphy is that he needs to be "alpha" and he sees any such action as weakness. Personally, I think it says about a man that he's afraid that a dog will take over the "alpha position" or that it will see him as 'weak' because he offers a treat.
 

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What. The. Kriff. 0_0
So, her advice: Don't train 'em. Hit 'em. Why? She told us that “Force is the only language dogs understand” which is direct quote from Pattison.
:rolleyes: Tell her to tell that to my dogs. I do use P+, but I mostly use R+/P-. My dogs are not perfect (this is partly due to my laziness, I slack up sometimes and don't get out as much as I should), but they're a heck of a lot better than many dogs I've come across.

But really surprised me is how she was trying to teach Agility...no dog who is dragged and handled roughly all over the course will learn to love the sport. You won't be seeing those poor dogs at the nationals!
I'm not an expert, but I've been reading "The Beginners Guide to Agility" which points out the importance of R+ when training for Agility. My dogs will begin to shut down if I even raise my voice at them on the Agility course. Dogs just have to enjoy the sport to excel.
 

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I was unfortunate enough to see one of "Street Safety" videos on You Tube (it has since been removed). I found it incredibly disturbing.
I watched a whole series of them before they were removed. About the time he started running with the dog and put a tree between them so the dog would be whipped around it (the husky made almost a full circle around the tree from the force of impact on the leash) in order to teach it "to be more attentive to what *I'm* doing," I almost threw up.

I could not believe that this total jerk has a TV show. DANGEROUS.
 

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How do people like him explain away the successfulness of clicker training? If 'force is the only thing they understand'... how are people getting results without using any?!
 

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How do people like him explain away the successfulness of clicker training? If 'force is the only thing they understand'... how are people getting results without using any?!
Exactly.:)
 
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