Puppy Forum and Dog Forums banner

21 - 40 of 57 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,942 Posts
Mike:

What you may or may not have noticed in our discussion here is that what everyone wants is that which will give you the best results for you and your dog. The book list suggested will lead you on that path and you and your dog will have fun getting there with the least chance of negative side effects.

The DW TV show IS entertaining.

Meanwhile, I have read and used the techniques in most of the books originally listed and I get compliments from strangers on my dog's good behavior. I have had people stop and WATCH me working her and have had many a person say that she is such a HAPPY dog and so "obviously is devoted to me.."

I smile and say thank you (tho I believe she is really devoted to the toy we play Tug with and the Spam and string cheese she thinks I am an unlimted source of.... and the fact that she finds it extremely entertaining that I can sometimes be so DULL).

So, if you want that sort of reaction from your dog, you will give the suggestions here a whirl. You have nothing to lose. Other techniques will still be there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,761 Posts
I would argue that the average dog owner isn't so concerned with theory and more concerned with results.
A agree, they shouldn’t be concerned with dominance theory. And I would include dominance theorists.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that dogs should be handled 100% by Cesar's theories at all. All I'm saying is that his methods (regardless of the theory behind them) have some validity in some situations. They're certainly not appropriate in every single situation.
As you’ve said CM’s methods are NOT for every dog. The same can’t be said of learning theory. Learning theory is applicable to every dog, slug, bird…if it lives or breathes, their behavior can be explained/modified with learning theory. All other explanations are either an extension of learning theory, or some invalidated construct to explain phenomena.

When people look at Cesar I think they miss the fact that he works pretty exclusively with problem dogs.
I would disagree. He works with dogs who’s behavior doesn’t conform to his guardian’s needs. The dog and his behavior are quite normal/natural…not necessarily problematic. If we looked at his show for a basis he really only deals with dogs that’ve lived in the absence of basic training.

I do agree with Cesar that you're probably not going to fix an aggressive dog with a clicker.
You and Cesar would be wrong. Behaviorists do it everyday, with real success. For you and Cesar would be ignoring a basic principle in learning theory…classical conditioning.

There's a time and a place for everything. Cesar's techniques are just another tool in the tool box.
Techniques yes, and you might even find them in the bottom of my tool bag, but please excuse the rust, I hardly need those tools. Logic, no. Flawed logic is flawed logic, and I don’t have time to knowingly practice flawed logic, and I don’t recommend anyone else do it either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
My favorite is "Mother Knows Best - the Natural Way to Train your Dog" by Carol Lea Benjamin. I used it with my first Aussie 20 years ago, lent it to someone and never got it back, and bought it again 5 years ago when I got my new Aussie! It's worked for me with both dogs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,072 Posts
I am not saying he is right or wrong: I just want to find out what is right for our dog.

A rational discourse on this issue could be productive.

I will say this, I did borrow a couple of books from the library by other authors: The Dummies (or Idiots one) and "For the love of the dog"

Mike
Well, heck, Brad Pattison (shock collar abusive idiot)'s methods work, if you only want a dog that DOESN'T jump, doesn't run, and doesn't do anything but sit and wait to be zapped. And if you really MUST use physically coersive techniques? Go straight to the source and get the Koehler Method of Dog Training books. They're VERY step by step, very focused on getting behaviors specific to competition obedience, and 'fair' in that they teahc you to teach the behavior before you use corrections.

Just because a method produces some good results doesn't mean it's a good method. For me, the proof is that it produces good results the vast majority of the time and in the cases where there is not a good result, there is at least not a bad one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,420 Posts
I would agree CM can get results with his methods - though I'm not sure if we would agree that those results are adequate or preferred by handlers/trainers or by the dog. Despite this, the results of his methods can easily be explained with learning theory or simple logic. What I would not agree with is that CM's logic (dominance theory) is the reason for his results, nor would I agree dominance theory justifies the methods he chooses.
I don't see CM's methods as dominance.. Well some of his methods surely are.

Most of the tactics I see is more leadership, and how to be a leader. Not a problem I've ever had with a dog, so not so useful for me.

If you aren't your dog's leader, most dogs will be happy to be take leadership. It's a dogs social nature to take leadership, or seize it if it sees opportunity or need to.

He seems to use dominance only to the point he needs to with specific dogs/problems to shake them out of an assumed leadership role IMO.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,761 Posts
I don't see CM's methods as dominance.. Well some of his methods surely are.

Most of the tactics I see is more leadership, and how to be a leader. Not a problem I've ever had with a dog, so not so useful for me.

If you aren't your dog's leader, most dogs will be happy to be take leadership. It's a dogs social nature to take leadership, or seize it if it sees opportunity or need to.

He seems to use dominance only to the point he needs to with specific dogs/problems to shake them out of an assumed leadership role IMO.
Everyone has their own definition of "leadership", with "addendums" depending on the context. It's a pointless practice IMO. All we need to know about our dogs when we train them is...possession of resources follows the 9/10th law; and how, as my dog's guardian, can I maintain control over those resources. Beyond that all we need to know is, do you want more behavior or less? Answering that question does not involve "leadership". You just need a sense for what you want and a means to get there. Coincidentally, your dog wants the same thing.

What the dog is thinking, at the nth degree, regarding a "position" is meant only as an exercise in rhetoric. It has no real application when training a dog.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy deep meanings to things, and overexplantions when they paint an interesting story, but let's be real...in being a responsible guardian for our dogs, what part of it suggests its antithesis is okay sometimes or at all?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,423 Posts
I am not saying he is right or wrong: I just want to find out what is right for our dog.
That quest might take you to the 'dark side'....and that's not all bad.
Good trainers/instructors and even casual handlers have been known to visit the 'enemy camp' to perhaps pick up a tip or two that can be modified to their own liking or their own dog......same with the books.
While we often dis Koehler (force train) and Milan (intimidation train) the methods WORK...so does Play training and Purely Positive. There are often side effects to the various methods though. Even Play training can have a downside...ie; a dog that is not comfortable in stressful situations.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,997 Posts
That quest might take you to the 'dark side'....and that's not all bad.
Good trainers/instructors and even casual handlers have been known to visit the 'enemy camp' to perhaps pick up a tip or two that can be modified to their own liking or their own dog......same with the books.
While we often dis Koehler (force train) and Milan (intimidation train) the methods WORK...so does Play training and Purely Positive. There are often side effects to the various methods though. Even Play training can have a downside...ie; a dog that is not comfortable in stressful situations.
I personally feel that if you write off an entire school of thought training wise that you're making a huge mistake. The fact of the matter is you can bring the same problem to three different trainers and get three different responses and every single one of them can work.

Look at a common problem that shows up here - dog pulling on the leash. How do we correct this and which method works? Some recommend the "tree" routine or turning and walking the other way. Does this method work? Absolutely. Some recommend changing speeds and when the dog is by your side give them treats. Does this work? Yes, it does. Some recommend a gentle leader or no-pull harness. Does this work? Sure. Others recommend sliding the leash up under the chin so the dog can't pull. Guess what. This works too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,966 Posts
Cesar's techniques are just another tool in the tool box.
Okay, sure, if you want to call them that... but Cesar's techniques are a tool that should be employed by ONLY professionals like Cesar. I do not understand why the caveat on his show -- that his methods should not be used at home, by pet owners -- is repeatedly ignored. Cesar has skill with dogs and their body language that most pet owners don't. If you want your dog to be trained with Cesar's methods, send him to Cesar... don't watch his show and start alpha rolling your dog every time he barks at guests.

To get back to the topic at hand, some good books have already been recommended. Brenda Aloff, Jean Donaldson, Stanley Coren and Patricia McConnell are good. If you are looking for a training book specifically (not a book on dog psychology, which I would classify the above authors' works as) I would check out Pat Miller's "The Power of Positive Dog Training". Excellent book, very simple and very effective.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,525 Posts
If you want your dog to be trained with Cesar's methods, send him to Cesar... don't watch his show and start alpha rolling your dog every time he barks at guests.
And that's the problem with assumptions. When someone says they like Cesar or use his methods, people assume that they are alpha rolling their dogs for barking, which Cesar has NEVER done. :rolleyes: That mindset is what maintains the rift between the two imaginary camps and causes people to think in terms of "the enemy camp" or "the dark side" as was mentioned earlier. There are no camps, except in the minds of people who wish to see it that way. :) It's all for the good of dog.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,997 Posts
Okay, sure, if you want to call them that... but Cesar's techniques are a tool that should be employed by ONLY professionals like Cesar. I do not understand why the caveat on his show -- that his methods should not be used at home, by pet owners -- is repeatedly ignored. Cesar has skill with dogs and their body language that most pet owners don't. If you want your dog to be trained with Cesar's methods, send him to Cesar... don't watch his show and start alpha rolling your dog every time he barks at guests.
I would not necessarily disagree with that. Cesar is an expert at reading dogs body language and giving the dog instant input on their behavior. Not sure if this comes to him naturally or if he's developed it over time or not. Either way I think this is a huge part of why his techniques work so well for him.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,525 Posts
Or ratings.
LOL. :) It's true. His show is very popular and he's a businessperson, no doubt. T-shirts, books, tapes and DVDs... But don't all dog behaviorists and trainers (who make a living doing it) sell their wares? He's just very successful. If he has changed the way he works with dogs, it's to show more of the "positive" aspects of working with dogs, like clickers and treating. Does it bring up his ratings? Probably. But I'm glad he tries to wipe out the Millan vs. Positive imaginary rift. THAT is an invention of the "Positive Only" set for the benefit of selling their books and other wares, in my opinion.

What's more important to me than his business sense is that he's saved countless dogs from being put down needlessly. And he's getting some very important messages out there: Treat your dogs like furry children and you may end up with a behavior problem on your hands. Neglect the dog's needs and you'll have issues later on. Dogs pick up on your energy. Prevention is the best tool against behavioral issues. Exercise is the best gift you can give your dog. Your relationship with your dog is all-important...

I know there are people out there who think they're Cesar Millan incarnate :rolleyes: (I've run into them when I used to go to the dog park) and I strongly recommend that people DO NOT use his harsh techniques on their dogs! Call a professional. But there's all kinds of things happening on TV that shouldn't be tried at home. We have to lay the responsibility where it belongs (IMO) on the people who read the disclaimer and choose to ignore it.

I wanted to say that I love Pat Miller's "The Power of Positive Dog Training". It was one of the books I got before I got my first puppies. I also liked "How to Raise a Puppy You Can Live With" by Clarice Rutherford and David H. Neil. But that is more for puppies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,761 Posts
But don't all dog behaviorists and trainers (who make a living doing it) sell their wares?
Per CM, he is not a trainer. And I don't know any organization that recognizes CM as a behaviorist. So, no, "all" dog behaviorists and trainers don't sell their wares as CM does. Many of them are concerned only for their customer (dog and guardian) and choose to employ ethics that would not, for the sake of entertainment, leave them choking, jerking, kicking, scruff shaking, alpha rolling, or intimidating a dog.

But I'm glad he tries to wipe out the Millan vs. Positive imaginary rift. THAT is an invention of the "Positive Only" set for the benefit of selling their books and other wares, in my opinion.
I don't see how side stepping his critics is an attempt to "wipe out" the rift. And I'm sorry, if you believe his critics exist to sell books, and they aren't speaking from a welfare perspective, you're fooling yourself.

Why else would an organization like the AVSAB go out of their way to discredit the archaic logic CM uses? What exactly are they selling?

What's more important to me than his business sense is that he's saved countless dogs from being put down needlessly. And he's getting some very important messages out there: Treat your dogs like furry children and you may end up with a behavior problem on your hands. Neglect the dog's needs and you'll have issues later on. Dogs pick up on your energy. Prevention is the best tool against behavioral issues. Exercise is the best gift you can give your dog. Your relationship with your dog is all-important...
If we're going to give him credit for his "message", we must also give him credit for reversing dog training? I've sat behind a surrender desk, and if I'm being frank, people are completely ignorant about how to raise a dog, and so too the "professionals" they choose. I was actually shocked by how many references to CM I was given when a dog was being surrendered. I think this message should have just as much a voice as CM.

I'm not concerned with what CM does with his private business. I haven't seen any documentation of the "countless" dogs he's saved, so I can't comment on that. But his TV show does effect the public, and his archaic methods are effecting the public in a negative way. That's been my experience, and I have nothing to sell either.

We have to lay the responsibility where it belongs (IMO) on the people who read the disclaimer and choose to ignore it.
No doubt, and when someone feels the need to advocate his methods, I'm likely one of the first to remind them of why his methods come with a caveat.

This isn't a "positive" movement...It very much has to do with the welfare of our favored companions.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
363 Posts
I often wonder if the Cesar Milan critics have ever read his books or really thought about his main messages about leadership, exercise, discipline, energy. In reality, 95% if what he says should be pretty uncontroversial and IMHO needs to be heard by a lot of dog owners.

In terms of his work with problem dogs, it seems that many see him give a dog a little poke and immediately go into a fit over this 'abuse'. In today's protected sanitized western society many people don't feel comfortable being physical with a dog, so they criticize anybody who is. {Mildred, he poked the dog! With his hand ! OMG!!!! HE TOUCHED THE DOG I SAW IT HE TOUCHED HIM !!! Look the dog looks confused, unhappy! He's not allowed on the couch ! What abuse!! THEY NEED TO CALL A BEHAVIORIST !!!!!!}.

There is also no doubt a fair amount of professional jealousy out there over his success. Shouldn't be really. The show is not about dogs as much as it is about people being aware and in control of their own emotions/ energy, thinking positively, overcoming their own fears and inhibitions. It really is quite brilliant television.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,761 Posts
Just curious Curbside Prophet, have you ever read any of Cesar's books?
BTW, I've read CM's first book...
In terms of his work with problem dogs, it seems that many see him give a dog a little poke and immediately go into a fit over this 'abuse'. In today's protected sanitized western society many people don't feel comfortable being physical with a dog, so they criticize anybody who is. {Mildred, he poked the dog! With his hand ! OMG!!!! HE TOUCHED THE DOG I SAW IT HE TOUCHED HIM !!! Look the dog looks confused, unhappy! He's not allowed on the couch ! What abuse!! THEY NEED TO CALL A BEHAVIORIST !!!!!!}.

There is also no doubt a fair amount of professional jealousy out there over his success. Shouldn't be really. The show is not about dogs as much as it is about people being aware and in control of their own emotions/ energy, thinking positively, overcoming their own fears and inhibitions. It really is quite brilliant television.
I think this answers all your misunderstandings.
http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
363 Posts
Read it. Not very persuasive at all.

"Cesar's method's put stress on dogs. Stress is bad. Cesar is bad" Very deep. LOL

or
"One problem with punishment-based methods is that they assume the dog will learn what it is doing is "wrong," thereby giving dogs the humanlike ability to determine right from wrong."
So now we're not even allowed to teach the dog what it is wrong to do. LOL

and I love:
Many of the professionals who have spoken out against the show are immensely successful in their own right. They have the respect of their colleagues, are professors at universities and popular speakers and authors.

and none of them want to be making $10 M a year on national TV......

The article is just the author's opinion.

Moreover, the author (like most CM critics) is focusing on a few techniques used in the show for rehabilitating dogs with big problems. That's irrelevant to most dog owners. Milan's main messages for all dog owners are about leadership, exercise, discipline, energy. Follow them from Day 1 and you'll never have to lay a hand on your dog.; a pssst will suffice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,761 Posts
Read it. Not very persuasive at all.
What makes you think I'm trying to persuade your opinion? What makes you think I care for your opinion? Either you can find the logic in the author's statements, or you can't, or refuse to. The last two I can't help you.

"Cesar's method's put stress on dogs. Stress is bad. Cesar is bad" Very deep. LOL
It's not about stress. It's about ethics. Ethics that CM avoids for entertainment value. You may not be aware of the impact stress can have on behavior mod, or refuse to, but standing from a critical point of view, ignoring these facts doesn't shed well on your arguments.

or
"One problem with punishment-based methods is that they assume the dog will learn what it is doing is "wrong," thereby giving dogs the humanlike ability to determine right from wrong."
So now we're not even allowed to teach the dog what it is wrong to do. LOL
You really don't have a feel for respondent behavior, do you? Or how, if not addressed appropriately, punishment/reinforcement will not be effective. And that very much brings in a question of ethics. The author is right, those who overlook respondent behavior are being anthropomorphic, no matter how lycanthropic they think they're being.

and I love:
Many of the professionals who have spoken out against the show are immensely successful in their own right. They have the respect of their colleagues, are professors at universities and popular speakers and authors.

and none of them want to be making $10 M a year on national TV......
If you're point is $$$ drives CM, I agree. If not, your argument doesn't follow.

The article is just the author's opinion.
It's one author's opinion, and those who employ a bit of logic will follow it clearly. I can't speak for the CM zealots. But if you read the AVSAB position statement, it's NOT just one authority with this opinion.

Moreover, the author (like most CM critics) is focusing on a few techniques used in the show for rehabilitating dogs with big problems.
Big problems made by CM, I agree. If you've never seen a true behaviorist work, many of the dogs on CM's show are NOT big problems. But having read your comments, I trust that you have NOT seen a true behaviorist work.

Milan's main messages for all dog owners are about leadership, exercise, discipline, energy. Follow them from Day 1 and you'll never have to lay a hand on your dog.; a pssst will suffice.
Now that's worth laughing at.
Tssst!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,333 Posts
Another good book is IN FOCUS - DEVELOPING A WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR PERFORMANCE DOG by Deborah Jones & Judy Keller. It's not a book that's just for Agility, Rally, etc, but the things in the book can be used for just about any kind of training. The main focus of the book is to get your dog to focus on you. Very good book.....
 
21 - 40 of 57 Posts
Top