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Aversive methods and training tools

436 Views 1 Reply 2 Participants Last post by  RonE
I realize some of you may want to stay out of this to avoid the fights and venom, and I respect that. But any responses would be greatly appreciated. NOT trying to stir up trouble here.
Putting this out there before I even write the question: For those of you who use aversives or tools: I am not trying to criticize, I am trying to learn and potentially adapt- please don't misinterpret anything I say as accusing you. For those of you who disagree with this approach: Of course, feel free to participate, but I really don't want anyone from either side to criticize the other or start a fight- so just be sure not to criticize, if you can help it- I realize many of you are passionate about this, so it's probably hard.

I realize that this is a topic that creates a lot of tension, I was just hoping to get more information from each side out there in a respectful manner. My goal here is to learn and put information out there, not to change anyone's ideas or approaches. Hopefully this can be helpful to people.

So. Here's the actual post:

I have talked with some people on this forum, and they have answered these, and were very helpful- but I'm curious what everyone who uses "aversives" has to say about these:
-So, one argument you hear against using punishment is that it will harm the bond with your dog or cause your dog to only obey out of fear. How do you avoid this in your training?
-Another argument is that if the dog experiences pain or even discomfort in training, he will like it less, and become less motivated. Is this true? How do you prevent it?
-What I have heard from trainers in regards to using tools for correction is that you first teach the skill, and then correct if the dog ignores you or otherwise does not do what you have trained him to do. But what a purely positive trainer would say that if the dog does not comply, it is because you failed to proof it well enough, or because the dog hasn't yet fully grasped what you meant and generalized the skill- that you have moved too fast in your training. How do you respond to this? When do you determine that the dog knows what to do, and can do it, but is still not complying?
-Most trainers who use "aversives" will say that "purely positive" works up to a point, but cannot work for everything or for every level of obedience. Other than if the dog can not physically be controlled, what would you say is this "point" that pp does not work beyond?
-Any other important points about why you do it and how you do it would be appreciated.
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I really don't think we need to rehash this yet again.
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