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My eyes haven't rolled that hard in a long while.
 

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I have literally never heard a rewards-based trainer say “Reward what you like and ignore what you don’t.”

Here is a more accurate representation of what rewards-based training is:

 

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LOL!

All I could imagine is if the author of this article was talking to me in person, I would have that pasted on smirk-grin thing that you see in sitcoms when the characters don't want to be there, and I would be desperately searching for the nearest escape route...there's no reasoning with that.
 

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LOL!

All I could imagine is if the author of this article was talking to me in person, I would have that pasted on smirk-grin thing that you see in sitcoms when the characters don't want to be there, and I would be desperately searching for the nearest escape route...there's no reasoning with that.
Exactly. No reasoning. And if anyone DOES try to reason, they're just labeled as an "AR fanatic".
 

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Has this person, so intent on educating us as to the failings of our chosen training method via really, really dumb links and the occasional baseless lecture, yet bothered to give us credentials or told us what titles they've managed to put on dogs? Anything, at all, to show us they can back up their philosophy and oh so firm opinions with actual, you know, success in training dogs?

Or, really, otherwise proven that they understands training (positive or otherwise) at ALL, in spite of all the evidence we keep getting that they DON"T. I spend so much time eye-rolling I could easily have missed something.
 

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And to be clear, I don't think titles are the end all, be all, of being a good trainer. I do, however, think you have to be a special kind of dumb to tell someone with a bunch of them that their methods don't/can't/won't work. Like that is some serious, intentional, deliberate, stubborn, ignorance.
 

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And to be clear, I don't think titles are the end all, be all, of being a good trainer. I do, however, think you have to be a special kind of dumb to tell someone with a bunch of them that their methods don't/can't/won't work. Like that is some serious, intentional, deliberate, stubborn, ignorance.
Titles don't mean anything to fanatics like these because according to them, only 'easy' dogs get titles. And the basis of their argument is that positive reinforcement training doesn't work on HARD dogs - you know, dogs with reactivity or aggression issues who really need to be manhandled in order to be taught.

Your dogs are super easy, CptJack, and that's why R+ works for you ;)
 

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Err, the author is Tyler Muto a highly regarded balanced trainer and current president and director of the ICPA. I am sure no one would object to a link to from a prominent +R trashing balanced trainers though.

*Aversive Free (AF) Training can be defined as training which involves only the R+ and P- quadrants of learning. When I refer to Aversive Free (AF) Trainers in this article, I am not referring to those who simply choose this approach for themselves, but I am referring to those who vehemently oppose the use of aversives for any dog in any situation.

Let me be clear, what I am referring to is not the idea that reward only techniques are good, and work in some cases. What I am referring to is the dogmatic belief that this is the ONLY way to train a dog, or deal with behavior problems. The aversive free philosophy is that any type of consequence other than simply removing the reward, is cruel, inhumane, and barbaric.
 

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I was going to link the Eileen and Dogs stuff, but BKay already did it, so I'll just leave this here:


 

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Your dogs are super easy, CptJack, and that's why R+ works for you ;)
...I'd like a word with Molly. She seems not to have gotten the memo, and if she's meant to be easy because R+ works, I'd really like her to get with it.

Also the rest has been covered by other posters, so I'll just carry on with my snark.

Well, except to add: The author of this article is not a well respected balanced trainer. He's a balanced trainer with an internet presence. Michael Ellis is a well respected balanced trainer. Funnily enough he isn't an idiot about what positive training actually is.
 

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Well, except to add: The author of this article is not a well respected balanced trainer. He's a balanced trainer with an internet presence. Michael Ellis is a well respected balanced trainer. Funnily enough he isn't an idiot about what positive training actually is.
Saying that the author of this article is a well respected balanced trainer is like saying Cesar Millan is a well respected balanced trainer. Media presence does not equal respected. It just means that their (wrong) information is more prominent and more accessible to the public.

Plus, as we all know, people WANT a reason to believe that punishment is necessary. Because that means they don't have to face the guilt of having repeatedly used unnecessary punishments on their animals.
 

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Saying that the author of this article is a well respected balanced trainer is like saying Cesar Millan is a well respected balanced trainer. Media presence does not equal respected. It just means that their (wrong) information is more prominent and more accessible to the public.

Plus, as we all know, people WANT a reason to believe that punishment is necessary. Because that means they don't have to face the guilt of having repeatedly used unnecessary punishments on their animals.
I find it really interesting that when people are trying to support their belief that dogs MUST BE PUNISHED!!! people like Ellis aren't who they quote or link. This is, of course, largely because people like Ellis use punishment and pressure, yeah, but they also understand dogs, understand that there are dogs out there for whom *any* punishment is inappropriate, and use a lot of play and rewards.

They are actually good trainers, having good success, who understand dogs and training - using some methods I wouldn't and don't see the need for, but good trainers, who understand dogs, training, and succeeding - rather than abusive jerks with anger and ego issues, threatened by the success of others, and looking for an excuse.
 

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Curious, in the realm of balanced trainers how do you find out who is well respected or reputable, and who is not? I feel like I posted a thread about that a while ago. I actually thought Tyler Muto WAS one who was reputable as far as balanced trainers go. Doesn't mean I agree with the original post and its misleading clickbait title, or with Mirzam, whose opinions I always take with a grain of salt because they follow Behan's training.
 

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Curious, in the realm of balanced trainers how do you find out who is well respected or reputable, and who is not? I feel like I posted a thread about that a while ago. I actually thought Tyler Muto WAS one who was reputable as far as balanced trainers go. Doesn't mean I agree with the original post and its misleading clickbait title, or with Mirzam, whose opinions I always take with a grain of salt because they follow Behan's training.
For me it's about actually being balanced (Ie: has a good understanding of when/how reward based training works and a willingness to use it along with some aversive methods) and about truly having the ability to adapt to the dog in front of them as well as understand dog training and dog theory. I trust no one - no one - who uses a cookie cutter approach, one size fits all one, or who believes punishment is necessary for every dog. And, just like positive trainers, I want to see success in their own dogs and in their clients, and the ability to work with a wide variety of people and dogs.

I mean I'm not going to them but for me it's the same trainer, who includes an extra tool or two in their box that I'm not comfortable with. Not one who only has one tool IN the box. And in truth I am similar with reward based trainers. There's a reason I think Susan Garrett's a bag of hot air.

And part of why I LIKE Ellis is the very, very strong suspicion that he'd meet my dogs and bring out toys and food and explain in depth the 19 reasons why they are not suitable for punishment training (well Molly and Kylie) because I've heard him do it with others.
 
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