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Well in this case it wasn't "There is a possibility of someone being inside because that's a thing that sometimes happens in this area". The OP got a tip from a neighbour that an intruder may be in their house, and then the OP went to arm themselves.
I re read it.. and there is always a possibility I have not read the first post correctly..... . and as I posted before, the OP may have left out more details of what the neighbor said or they may of not left out anything, maybe the neighbor did only say they had only seen people on the property.. Nothing about people being in the house, and there was no mention by the OP that there was signs of entry when he went to the front door and entered the house. And no one knows if the dog found the person hiding and waiting first,,, or that the guy was in the act of fleeing when the dog found them.. you don't know to truly say anything about it.... But it has been a huge focal point of this thread that some how everyone here knows full facts of what happened to judge it.....

You have people strapping on a loaded fire arm to go to the grocery store.. and this guy gets word there were people seen on his property and he goes to get his gun and dog before he goes there... ??????
 

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I re read it.. and there is always a possibility I have not read the first post correctly..... . and as I posted before, the OP may have left out more details of what the neighbor said or they may of not left out anything, maybe the neighbor did only say they had only seen people on the property.. Nothing about people being in the house, and there was no mention by the OP that there was signs of entry when he went to the front door and entered the house. And no one knows if the dog found the person hiding and waiting first,,, or that the guy was in the act of fleeing when the dog found them.. you don't know to truly say anything about it.... But it has been a huge focal point of this thread that some how everyone here knows full facts of what happened to judge it.....

You have people strapping on a loaded fire arm to go to the grocery store.. and this guy gets word there were people seen on his property and he goes to get his gun and dog before he goes there... ??????
The key is the specifically going and getting. That's the beginning of premeditated should this person have died.

I really don't know what the person hiding or fleeing has to do with anything. The point is that he didn't know. And, not knowing, was putting himself, his dog, and the intruder's lives at risk.
 

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I think the difference between Patricia's scenario of arriving at a second home late at night and the OP's is that she would need to go into the home she's arriving at and the OP did not need to enter that vacant home at that time. He had time to wait. There's legal and then there is sensible+legal.

Plus, Oklahoma City isn't exactly rural Colorado or rural Alaska in terms of police.
 

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Patricia, you clearly have very minimal knowledge about firearm laws or how to properly handle a dangerous situation while armed with a deadly weapon. Arming oneself and then unnecessarily entering a situation in which a firearm is needed is premeditated murder should a fatality occur. Me going to the grocery store while armed IN CASE I HAVE TO DEFEND MYSELF is completely different. The fact that you would even compare those two situations clearly displays the depth of your ignorance concerning responsible firearm ownership and use.

I've sat back and watched you spout idiocy on this thread concerning gun laws and firearm responsibility, police response and city police somehow being overemployed and underworked, owners having rights to unnecessarily defend property with deadly force, etc, and it's just really getting exhausting to read. Your views are outdated and backwards. The quite frankly dangerous advice you're giving people, and the misinformation you're presenting as fact, is the epitome of ignorance and negligence.
 

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it is all premeditated..... everyone is making a full conscious choice with specific intent to do harm if and when necessary to the extent of being fatal... you have a gun in your house, a bat behind the door, a bat or tire iron in your car, you carry a loaded fire arm , or a knife on you .... to include my dogs in the same thought process for me as an individual. It is a conscious choice with specific intent.... and with full knowledge that they do harm.. Not the same that something happens your being attacked and you grab a cast iron skillet or a rock to hit them on the head because you find it at arms length from you... That is why you have a full investigation for everything and clear people (or not) for using them.... But they are all premeditated with specific intent for having them to use them.

all the added details and added knowledge are good valid points that no one should knowingly be reckless and not have a high regard for life.

it's a huge tragedy that a jogger gets attacked and killed but they found her Rottie unharmed wondering around miles away... ????? Owners should really give that some thought before they physically and mentally dismantle their dogs to nothing.. instead of working on Balance...

And I mentioned about the dog because a DS in our military kennels .... and the whole police dog comment that was made...
 

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Patricia, you clearly have very minimal knowledge about firearm laws or how to properly handle a dangerous situation while armed with a deadly weapon. Arming oneself and then unnecessarily entering a situation in which a firearm is needed is premeditated murder should a fatality occur. Me going to the grocery store while armed IN CASE I HAVE TO DEFEND MYSELF is completely different. The fact that you would even compare those two situations clearly displays the depth of your ignorance concerning responsible firearm ownership and use.

I've sat back and watched you spout idiocy on this thread concerning gun laws and firearm responsibility, police response and city police somehow being overemployed and underworked, owners having rights to unnecessarily defend property with deadly force, etc, and it's just really getting exhausting to read. Your views are outdated and backwards. The quite frankly dangerous advice you're giving people, and the misinformation you're presenting as fact, is the epitome of ignorance and negligence.
you know nothing about me, what jobs I've done, whom I have worked for directly or in conjunction with, doing what, what schools and training here in the US and overseas that I have attended.. There is no dangerous advice being given by me relating actual situations and experiences that we all face on a day to day bases in the same situations.... I get it you will always be upset reading into my post as negative towards me but that is an issue you will have to deal with on your own.
 

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it is all premeditated..... everyone is making a full conscious choice with specific intent to do harm if and when necessary to the extent of being fatal... you have a gun in your house, a bat behind the door, a bat or tire iron in your car, you carry a loaded fire arm , or a knife on you .... to include my dogs in the same thought process for me as an individual. It is a conscious choice with specific intent.... and with full knowledge that they do harm.. Not the same that something happens your being attacked and you grab a cast iron skillet or a rock to hit them on the head because you find it at arms length from you... That is why you have a full investigation for everything and clear people (or not) for using them.... But they are all premeditated with specific intent for having them to use them.
Yeah dude, that's not how the law works. Self defense isn't premeditation. Period. If someone breaks into your home and you hit them with a pan, that's self defense.

all the added details and added knowledge are good valid points that no one should knowingly be reckless and not have a high regard for life.
But that's exactly what OP did. He was reckless and had a very low regard for life. And you've condoned his actions this entire thread.

it's a huge tragedy that a jogger gets attacked and killed but they found her Rottie unharmed wondering around miles away... ????? Owners should really give that some thought before they physically and mentally dismantle their dogs to nothing.. instead of working on Balance...
So this jogger was murdered because her dog was mentally dismantled? And a so-called 'balanced' dog would have attacked?

I'm incredulous. Like, really. I can't even. What a bunch of uneducated, backwards drivel.

you know nothing about me, what jobs I've done, whom I have worked for directly or in conjunction with, doing what, what schools and training here in the US and overseas that I have attended.. There is no dangerous advice being given by me relating actual situations and experiences that we all face on a day to day bases in the same situations.... I get it you will always be upset reading into my post as negative towards me but that is an issue you will have to deal with on your own.
All I know is what I read. And what you post here is misinformed, incorrect, and shows a truly deep non-understanding of how self defense laws and gun ownership works in the US.
 

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I received a text message this morning from the next door neighbor of one of my rental properties. She was basically saying that a couple of homeless looking people were hanging around my place.
I went home and picked up my Dutch Shepherd and a pistol for just in case. I parked down the street and walked up. When I opened the door I let my dog go and he went straight to the room where the guy was. I guess he was trying to jump out of the window when my dog grabbed his leg. I held the guy while the police came and arrested him. His leg was bleeding and now I'm wondering if I will be sued. About 30 minutes ago animal control called me and asked for my dogs shot records. I'm getting nervous now. One of my buddies is saying that they are going to put my dog down. I'm thinking about taking him to the country until this is resolved.
I really had to go back and re read the post that I was answering to... hanging around my place, just in case......... think the just in case is what everyone else has related is their right to carry their own means of defense.

The rest of the information that is upsetting individuals, here is information that has been added as their own facts.......
 

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I really had to go back and re read the post that I was answering to... hanging around my place, just in case......... think the just in case is what everyone else has related is their right to carry their own means of defense.

The rest of the information that is upsetting individuals, here is information that has been added as their own facts.......
It's like talking to a brick wall.

EVERYONE's point is that there didn't need to be an 'in case'. Call the cops. Have them clear the house. Don't put the dog at risk, don't put yourself at risk, don't put the other person at risk. Period.

Whenever you have to grab a gun "just in case" because you are PURPOSEFULLY walking into an UNNECESSARY situation in which you may have to kill someone, that's premeditation.
 

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Even without access to first responders, there are better ways to deal approach a suspect occupation by homeless people than loosing a dog. At least, first assess who is in the building and whether they are armed . .. or poor and desperate, whether there are children present, etc. Could be an accident victim who needs help. Who knows?
Exactly.

As I mentioned, I live in rural Alaska. We don't have a police force or anything like that. If we need law enforcement, an Alaska state trooper travels out. That means response time is several hours at best unless one happens to already be in the region already for another incident.

That lack of services is a reason NOT to go looking for trouble, not a reason to play vigilante. My guns and my big black dog are defensive, not offensive (well...unless you count caribou season), and I hope neither one'll ever need to be used against a person.

A local guy here recently had a situation similar to the OP's - heard that it looked like someone was squatting in their hunting cabin. He went by and sure enough, signs of habitation. He called the troopers and made an appointment, and met up with them to go check things out and oust anyone resident. It took a couple days to get the thing done but it was all done very peaceably and low-risk, with proper documentation for insurance and crime reporting.

As a side note, the general principle of people over property is held in pretty high regard here. For example, it's a social norm in the winter to leave unoccupied cabins unlocked and at least lightly stocked in case someone needs a temporary shelter (vehicle trouble, lost in the woods, sudden storm kicks up, etc). Not everyone does, but most people do.
 

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Exactly.

As I mentioned, I live in rural Alaska. We don't have a police force or anything like that. If we need law enforcement, an Alaska state trooper travels out. That means response time is several hours at best unless one happens to already be in the region already for another incident.

That lack of services is a reason NOT to go looking for trouble, not a reason to play vigilante. My guns and my big black dog are defensive, not offensive (well...unless you count caribou season), and I hope neither one'll ever need to be used against a person.

A local guy here recently had a situation similar to the OP's - heard that it looked like someone was squatting in their hunting cabin. He went by and sure enough, signs of habitation. He called the troopers and made an appointment, and met up with them to go check things out and oust anyone resident. It took a couple days to get the thing done but it was all done very peaceably and low-risk, with proper documentation for insurance and crime reporting.

As a side note, the general principle of people over property is held in pretty high regard here. For example, it's a social norm in the winter to leave unoccupied cabins unlocked and at least lightly stocked in case someone needs a temporary shelter (vehicle trouble, lost in the woods, sudden storm kicks up, etc). Not everyone does, but most people do.
Nothing wrong with that... he went by and saw signs of habitation and made the choice based off of that to call for assistance and wait for it... I think it is overly exceptional given your harsh area that people would leave their places unlocked and stocked with some resources because of your area and the situations people can suddenly find themselves in ..
 

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I'm fairly sure this is directed at me.

It's one thing to discuss dog training. When someone improperly trains a dog, sure bad things can happen. But a fatality is unlikely to occur. The fallout of bad training isn't a felony premeditated murder charge.

The fallout of Patricia's way of thinking IS a murder charge. Seriously. That's what could happen if someone does what she advocates doing, which is forgoing contacting law enforcement, arming oneself and entering a potentially occupied residence with intent to harm or kill any threat that is inside.

Firearm laws and the misuse of firearms is a hot topic for me. The right for law abiding citizens to carry firearms is currently under attack by gun control activists. There is a significant chance that gun control laws will become stricter and stricter until private citizens can no longer own firearms at all within the next 20 years. That is what is at risk here. Human life and our second amendment rights.

So you can bet that when someone starts misrepresenting what it means to own and carry a firearm responsibility, what someone's rights are as far as self defense, and what someone should do in an emergency situation, I'm going to say something about it. This isn't just about dog training. This is about a potentially life and death situation. And in that regard, I will absolutely, without fail, remorse, or any hesitation whatsoever, point out when someone is being ignorant and giving negligent advice.
where do you see that?????
 

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where do you see that?????
I would do the same thing..
This is what you posted in response to the OP. You'd do the same thing - send your dog into a home when you'd received a tip there was an intruder and you wouldn't contact law enforcement.

Anyways, I'm done with this conversation. I get my fill of enough misinformation and bad advice on the internet, I don't need any more of it for today.
 

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This is what you posted in response to the OP. You'd do the same thing - send your dog into a home when you'd received a tip there was an intruder and you wouldn't contact law enforcement.

Anyways, I'm done with this conversation. I get my fill of enough misinformation and bad advice on the internet, I don't need any more of it for today.
were do you see that in the first post......... ????
 

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It's literally the first few sentences.

I received a text message this morning from the next door neighbor of one of my rental properties. She was basically saying that a couple of homeless looking people were hanging around my place.
I went home and picked up my Dutch Shepherd and a pistol for just in case.
The neighbor texted the OP and said that homeless-looking people were on the property. The OP went home, grabbed the dog and gun, went straight to the house, and let the dog loose. The dog attacked a guy, as expected. If the guy had died, the OP would have been in some serious trouble because he knew there was someone in the house and he went in with the dog and gun looking for a fight.
 

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All the above being stated about castle doctrines and stand your ground laws....

Loosing my dog to go after someone in an un occupied building? Why? Seems kind of foolish.... Even IF you have the right to do so in your state... What are you going to gain by not stepping back and calling the police? You have a lot to lose.... They might be ready for you.... They might be all methed up and more than you and your dog can handle..... What if they are on PCP? Then you are dealing with a super paranoid, super charged person that is FULL of adrenaline and NOT likely to go down easy..... By dog or gun....

Everyone is going to have a different opinion on this.... Me.... If say it is a family member's home, I believe them to be inside, and someone has broken in and in there with them? I am not going to wait on police.... I am going in with everything I have.... Dogs included if they are with me...
My home does not really apply... Because there is usually at least one or two dogs at the house at all times.... If someone breaks in, it is likely going to be a mess when I get there. IF on the off chance all the dogs were with us and we came home to OUR house, and I believed someone was inside.... I would have a HARD time waiting on the police and would probably go in.... It is somehow more personal to me... More violating..... For someone to be inside where I live and sleep......

If someone is trying to force their way into my car and for some reason I cannot simply Drive away..... Blocked in, stuck in traffic, etc.... I am going to try and drive away if I can..... If I cannot they are going to see a gun REAL Quick... IF they continue to attempt to force their way into my vehicle. I would use the gun.....

But a empty rental house? Not worth it.... At all... Too many things can go wrong..... Even if you are right.....


And I say that..... As a person that would use my dogs as a weapon... I have a I watch your back, you watch my back mentality with my dogs... I expect them to alert me if someone is sneaking around.... At home, out and about..... in hotels, when traveling. I EXPECT them to sound the alarm and be the first line of defense at home... And to fight with me and or for me to protect myself and my wife.... And each other...

I also say that as a person that has carried a concealed handgun, nearly every day of MOST of my adult life..... Going on 27 years... IF I am out... I usually have a firearm on me... In the waist of my pants, in a pocket.... I have never had to use it.... I hope I never have to. I will.... But I do not want to.... I am glad Florida has a Stand Your Ground Law... It makes things more straight forward. But still.... IF I can safely back out of a situation, when I am out in public, and retreat, I will... It does not matter that I am within the law.... It does not matter that the person is a threat... If I can back away... I will... If not... Well then I will deal with the situation..... My house is a different story.... Someone is trying to break in my house.... When we are home.... If the dogs going nuts does not scare them off and they continue to attempt to get in..... I have to assume they mean us harm and are willing to face me and the dogs... At home, I am not retreating, hiding, etc....

I rambled on and on about the foolishness of going in and clearing an empty property a person owns...

That being said....

A LOT of people are stating things that do NOT apply in MUCH of the United States.....

(These things do not apply in Canada, Illinois, NY, NJ, MA, California, The PNW, and a few other places..)

But about 38 states have very similar laws -Florida, Texas, The rest of the South, Lower Midwest, Mountain States, Western States, etc...

People are throwing around the term premeditated.... That term does not apply here..

If a person wants to go clear their empty rental house, stopping off to pick up a gun and a dog would be prudent....

Everyone is getting hung up on the statement about going home and getting a gun... IF he was going to rob a liquor store... Well then it was premeditated.... But he is not going to commit a crime here.... He is going to check on the status of HIS property..... He could have stopped off and the sporting goods store for fresh ammo.... It still would not matter.

And again..... Calling the police and asking them to check out an empty building is safer, makes more sense, much simpler, and much less chance of getting complicated.

But still in much of the U.S. If he wants to check on his property that he believes there was an intruder in.... It is perfectly legal...

And in much of the country... IF he encountered and intruder.... And the intruder attacked, threatened to attack, behaved aggressively.... And he shot the intruder.... It would be self defense....

Other examples.....

It is two AM..... I hear some noises coming from my shed.... I grab a gun and go check it out. If I encounter a hostile intruder.... If I am forced to shoot them, self defense.

Same thing.... Say I owned the house next door and hear noises coming from it.... I grab a gun and go check it out..


Another scenario.... Say I am driving through a particularly bad part of town.... I reach over, pop the glove box, grab the gun in there and slide it into my belt... (Which is perfectly legal for me to do)

Then three blocks later, I am stuck in traffic and a guy comes up and takes a swing at my drivers side window trying to car jack me..... I am forced to defend myself..... The fact that I thought about my safety before hand and prepared myself has nothing to do with it....
 

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It's literally the first few sentences.



The neighbor texted the OP and said that homeless-looking people were on the property. The OP went home, grabbed the dog and gun, went straight to the house, and let the dog loose. The dog attacked a guy, as expected. If the guy had died, the OP would have been in some serious trouble because he knew there was someone in the house and he went in with the dog and gun looking for a fight.
Again on the property is not an intruder in the house...

I rambled on and on about the foolishness of going in and clearing an empty property a person owns...

That being said....

A LOT of people are stating things that do NOT apply in MUCH of the United States.....

(These things do not apply in Canada, Illinois, NY, NJ, MA, California, The PNW, and a few other places..)

But about 38 states have very similar laws -Florida, Texas, The rest of the South, Lower Midwest, Mountain States, Western States, etc...

People are throwing around the term premeditated.... That term does not apply here..

If a person wants to go clear their empty rental house, stopping off to pick up a gun and a dog would be prudent....

Everyone is getting hung up on the statement about going home and getting a gun... IF he was going to rob a liquor store... Well then it was premeditated.... But he is not going to commit a crime here.... He is going to check on the status of HIS property..... He could have stopped off and the sporting goods store for fresh ammo.... It still would not matter.

And again..... Calling the police and asking them to check out an empty building is safer, makes more sense, much simpler, and much less chance of getting complicated.

But still in much of the U.S. If he wants to check on his property that he believes there was an intruder in.... It is perfectly legal...

And in much of the country... IF he encountered and intruder.... And the intruder attacked, threatened to attack, behaved aggressively.... And he shot the intruder.... It would be self defense....

Other examples.....

It is two AM..... I hear some noises coming from my shed.... I grab a gun and go check it out. If I encounter a hostile intruder.... If I am forced to shoot them, self defense.

Same thing.... Say I owned the house next door and hear noises coming from it.... I grab a gun and go check it out..


Another scenario.... Say I am driving through a particularly bad part of town.... I reach over, pop the glove box, grab the gun in there and slide it into my belt... (Which is perfectly legal for me to do)

Then three blocks later, I am stuck in traffic and a guy comes up and takes a swing at my drivers side window trying to car jack me..... I am forced to defend myself..... The fact that I thought about my safety before hand and prepared myself has nothing to do with it....
I'll leave it with this...
 

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I rambled on and on about the foolishness of going in and clearing an empty property a person owns...

That being said....

A LOT of people are stating things that do NOT apply in MUCH of the United States.....

(These things do not apply in Canada, Illinois, NY, NJ, MA, California, The PNW, and a few other places..)

But about 38 states have very similar laws -Florida, Texas, The rest of the South, Lower Midwest, Mountain States, Western States, etc...

People are throwing around the term premeditated.... That term does not apply here..

If a person wants to go clear their empty rental house, stopping off to pick up a gun and a dog would be prudent....

Everyone is getting hung up on the statement about going home and getting a gun... IF he was going to rob a liquor store... Well then it was premeditated.... But he is not going to commit a crime here.... He is going to check on the status of HIS property..... He could have stopped off and the sporting goods store for fresh ammo.... It still would not matter.

And again..... Calling the police and asking them to check out an empty building is safer, makes more sense, much simpler, and much less chance of getting complicated.

But still in much of the U.S. If he wants to check on his property that he believes there was an intruder in.... It is perfectly legal...

And in much of the country... IF he encountered and intruder.... And the intruder attacked, threatened to attack, behaved aggressively.... And he shot the intruder.... It would be self defense....

Other examples.....

It is two AM..... I hear some noises coming from my shed.... I grab a gun and go check it out. If I encounter a hostile intruder.... If I am forced to shoot them, self defense.

Same thing.... Say I owned the house next door and hear noises coming from it.... I grab a gun and go check it out..


Another scenario.... Say I am driving through a particularly bad part of town.... I reach over, pop the glove box, grab the gun in there and slide it into my belt... (Which is perfectly legal for me to do)

Then three blocks later, I am stuck in traffic and a guy comes up and takes a swing at my drivers side window trying to car jack me..... I am forced to defend myself..... The fact that I thought about my safety before hand and prepared myself has nothing to do with it....
Yep. As far as I know, the actions of the OP would be legal in my state. However...

Again I will say that the actions are very likely legal but IMO, are not both sensible & legal.

I bold highlighted a key phrase. Basically, just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD.

Regardless of legality, sending a dog into an area sight unseen is risking the dog and I for one wouldn't want to risk my dog over property damage.
 
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