Puppy Forum and Dog Forums banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
21 - 40 of 111 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,445 Posts
None of my dogs are attack dogs. They are all guard dogs. You give commands to attack dogs. Guard dogs attack on their own when they see fit.
The only 2 who know if it was provoked or not was the guy and my dog.
I was always taught that you never try to run from a guard dog. The guy was trying to get out of the window when the dog had him.
It sounds as if you're saying my dog attacked out of fear or he's a people hater. Neither of which is true.
Better double check your homeowners insurance policy. Many (most?) standard homeowners liability policies do not cover "guard" dogs without a special rider or even purchasing separate liability insurance.

Having a dog that attacks when he sees fit -- such as when he is not even on his own property-- is a huge liability.

Someone running away from your dog is NOT a reason for him to attack. Yes, it appears the person was trespassing in this case (but it isn't like the dog knows who owns the building he happens to be in at any given time nor who has permission to be there), but if running away in and of itself causes your dog to attack that is (an action of) a dangerous dog.

There also can be a legal difference in general between a property you occupy and a property you own.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,911 Posts
Mmmmm. . . .where I live, it's not unusual for the sheriff to take 45 minutes to get to you. They are very big counties and if he's on the other side of the county he just plain can't come any faster. It's up to you, and maybe you can call your neighbor for backup. So it makes me feel safer knowing that Suri will bite unprovoked. . .but I don't think she's a stable dog. She crazy :D. But it still makes me feel a little safer. I just have to be careful about wanted guests.

As for legalities, it depends on the state. In this state, it's pretty lax. Exact wording: "Homicide is justifiable if committed by any person while resisting any attempt to murder such person, or to commit any felony upon him or her, or upon or in any dwelling house in which such person is." And burglary is a felony so even if they broke a window or took something small it would still be considered burglary. In practice, I know a lot of people are acquitted of wrongdoing when they shoot a trespasser inside their home (or, in one notable case, on the porch).

And state law basically says that if a dog bites someone who is on your property without permission, oops, their problem. Exact wording: "no dog may be declared vicious if an injury or damage is sustained to any person who was committing a willful trespass or other tort upon premises occupied by the owner or keeper of the dog, or who was teasing, tormenting, abusing or assaulting the dog or was committing or attempting to commit a crime." So your dog can bite a trespasser but you can't shoot him unless he's in the house :p.


Not that I think any of that is advisable. I think that one should let the police handle it whenever possible. It's just not always possible.

Also, with how many people the cops are shooting lately, maybe the trespasser would rather deal with the dog :D.
You're interpreting these laws as black and white, but they aren't. Not all home burglaries are felonies, for instance. And you can't really stop the person to see if what they're stealing constitutes a felony or misdemeanor crime. Laws differ from state to state, some have stand your ground laws and some don't, etc.

Also, you can bet your butt that you'd be sued if your dog attacked or mauled a child who wandered onto your property. Even if the child was "trespassing". So clearly that law has grey area as well.

My real question in all of this is why anyone, under any circumstances, would grab a firearm and go actively engage with a potential home invader when they have other options at their disposal. People who have that thought process should not own firearms. Because people with that thought process are the reason that unnecessary shootings happen, and the reason that second amendment rights of law abiding citizens are being infringed upon.

Owning a firearm is a privilege. And it requires a lot of responsibility, maturity and training to handle that privilege. I take it seriously, and it *really* makes me angry when other people don't.

In short, if there's a non-violent or minimally violent method to de-escalate a potentially dangerous situation, take it. Owning a firearm isn't about 'well I have the power to handle this myself now!'. A firearm is a last resort in a life or death situation that involves yourself or other people, not an invitation or opportunity to take justice into one's own hands. Period.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
53 Posts
Discussion Starter · #23 ·
This thread has gone the wrong way quickly. No one was shot nor mauled. My dog simply subdued a burglar. Did I did have my gun, but where I'm from handling guns and gun safety are learned as naturally as potty training.
Should I have called the police first; absolutely. This situation could have become ugly and luckily it didn't. As we go through life we learn from our mistakes. I'm just glad that this was an easy one to learn from.
I will continue to train my dogs the way that I always have. This is the first time anyone has been bitten by 1 of my dogs, and I actually put my dog in the situation. I am convinced now more than ever that if my dog or dogs are put to the test they will come through.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,765 Posts
Oh, yeah, definitely agree about the gun situation. I won't own a handgun because I know I would hesitate to use it, and hesitating is the same as giving the bad guy a gun. So I'll get by with pepper spray and a bat, and just hope it never comes up.

Also, you can bet your butt that you'd be sued if your dog attacked or mauled a child who wandered onto your property. Even if the child was "trespassing". So clearly that law has grey area as well.
Eh. . .I think you may underestimate the strength of people's property rights in farm areas. If someone were on my property uninvited, they would have had to make deliberate effort to be here. It's not a place people just wander through. I don't think there would be any legal trouble. Being sued, yes, probably---as I said, anybody can sure anybody for any reason, and suing homeowner's insurance is standard in all medical expense cases. I think they would probably get some money but not 100%, almost certainly no personal liability. But besides, Suri loves kids, she just hates MEN :p. So it would have to be a boy over 14, not sure he'd get a lot of sympathy. I know that not much happens when kids go into someone's pasture and get hurt by cattle (farm insurance may be sued, but no personal liability), and a dog to protect the home site is considered on the same level.

But of course I wouldn't want anything to happen so I make sure The Militant Feminist B**** isn't in a position to bite anyone :).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,445 Posts
This thread has gone the wrong way quickly. No one was shot nor mauled. My dog simply subdued a burglar. Did I did have my gun, but where I'm from handling guns and gun safety are learned as naturally as potty training.
Should I have called the police first; absolutely. This situation could have become ugly and luckily it didn't. As we go through life we learn from our mistakes. I'm just glad that this was an easy one to learn from.
I will continue to train my dogs the way that I always have. This is the first time anyone has been bitten by 1 of my dogs, and I actually put my dog in the situation. I am convinced now more than ever that if my dog or dogs are put to the test they will come through.
So you will continue to train your dogs that biting a person running away from them, on a property they don't even live at and when their owner is not even in the same room, is the way to go?

You had a report from a neighbor about a burglar. However, at the time that dog ran into the room alone, you did not know if the person in there was an adult burglar, a kid playing in a "vacant" house, a law enforcement official in pursuit of a burglar, or someone that had been mislead into thinking it was OK to be there (for example, there is a rental scam going on where someone posts a property that they don't own on craigslist and shows it, gets the application fee from multiple people and then runs with the money). It is comparable IMO to shooting through a closed door when you hear someone there but have not identified a target.

Biting to the point of bleeding (when not from puppy pointy teeth or accidental nips during tugs and the like), presumably through pants?, is a real injury. A few inches here or a few inches there and dogs can do serious damage to tendons, nerves and arteries

You say you learn from your mistakes and yet you say you will continue to train your dogs the way you always have and that you're convinced your dog will come through (a similar situation) in the same way; as in, would bite an unknown person outside of their house again.

Oh, yeah, definitely agree about the gun situation. I won't own a handgun because I know I would hesitate to use it, and hesitating is the same as giving the bad guy a gun. So I'll get by with pepper spray and a bat, and just hope it never comes up.


Eh. . .I think you may underestimate the strength of people's property rights in farm areas. If someone were on my property uninvited, they would have had to make deliberate effort to be here. It's not a place people just wander through. I don't think there would be any legal trouble. Being sued, yes, probably---as I said, anybody can sure anybody for any reason, and suing homeowner's insurance is standard in all medical expense cases. I think they would probably get some money but not 100%, almost certainly no personal liability. But besides, Suri loves kids, she just hates MEN :p. So it would have to be a boy over 14, not sure he'd get a lot of sympathy. I know that not much happens when kids go into someone's pasture and get hurt by cattle (farm insurance may be sued, but no personal liability), and a dog to protect the home site is considered on the same level.

But of course I wouldn't want anything to happen so I make sure The Militant Feminist B**** isn't in a position to bite anyone :).
And homeowners insurance is likely to get pretty upset when someone goes around advertising and using their dog as a "guard" (essentially attack) dog. A dog protecting your home is unlikely to be considered under the same insurance umbrella as a dog that someone willfully takes into another property (even one they own but are not resident in nor directly threatened in) and uses their dog to chase off and attack someone, even a burglar. I'm not a lawyer but civil law does tend to be more expansive than criminal law in such things.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,700 Posts
AFAIK castle doctrine doesn't apply unless it's your residence. I wouldn't relax too hard just yet.

Having a dog that'll bite random people in random locations isn't so much a "guard dog" as a poorly trained or poorly bred dog. This wasn't the dog's territory and it hadn't been given a command to guard, per your story.

An essential element of the guard dog role is the deterrent display, which apparently your dog did not provide, either. The actual point of a guard animal is not to maim or kill a threat, but to protect people/property. They are to scare off intruders and follow through only on active threats. A dog that will attack someone not posing an active threat is, generally speaking, not stable enough to be used in this manner safely.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,932 Posts
Frankly, while I agree with 90% of what is being said here, from castle doctrine only covering your residence (owning a vacant home does not count) to the lack of wisdom involved in self engaging (not just legally but what if that guy had a gun and shot your dog - and you?) instead of calling the police-

It's a dutch shepherd. They like to bite and they chase running things. I don't think it should be used that way, it should never have been let loose in the house, but it's not so much unstable as being used badly. Does that make sense? It'd be like me setting my rat terrier lose in a barn and calling it unstable because it killed a rat. Horrible thing to allow happen, all kinds of unwise, but not a 'bad' dog. It's just a dutch shepherd who needs some training and an owner not doing really questionable things with it, and setting it up to fail.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,445 Posts
Frankly, while I agree with 90% of what is being said here, from castle doctrine only covering your residence (owning a vacant home does not count) to the lack of wisdom involved in self engaging (not just legally but what if that guy had a gun and shot your dog - and you?) instead of calling the police-

It's a dutch shepherd. They like to bite and they chase running things. I don't think it should be used that way, it should never have been let loose in the house, but it's not so much unstable as being used badly. Does that make sense? It'd be like me setting my rat terrier lose in a barn and calling it unstable because it killed a rat. Horrible thing to allow happen, all kinds of unwise, but not a 'bad' dog. It's just a dutch shepherd who needs some training and an owner not doing really questionable things with it, and setting it up to fail.
I agree in that I don't think the dog is not acting to its nature more or less, the problem is if the nature is to be hard driven and chase/bite that it has to be tempered and controlled. Just because something comes natural to a dog doesn't make it OK in the public realm. I think that the dog being allowed (or encouraged) to bite in that situation or other similar situations makes it a dangerous dog-- in those circumstances or at at least currently until there is training happening. A dog that cannot be trusted off leash not to bite someone running away is a dangerous dog when off-leash at minimum.

Killing rats and biting humans does have some legal and moral distinction though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,700 Posts
It's a dutch shepherd. They like to bite and they chase running things. I don't think it should be used that way, it should never have been let loose in the house, but it's not so much unstable as being used badly. Does that make sense? It'd be like me setting my rat terrier lose in a barn and calling it unstable because it killed a rat. Horrible thing to allow happen, all kinds of unwise, but not a 'bad' dog. It's just a dutch shepherd who needs some training and an owner not doing really questionable things with it, and setting it up to fail.
Oh, yeah, agreed. Hence the "poorly trained or poorly bred." That instinct in a Dutch shepherd is supposed to be tempered by being highly trainable, so if that dog is attacking people unprovoked, I think it's safe to say there's either a training/handling failure, or the dog is not quite right.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,932 Posts
I agree in that I don't think the dog is unstable per se. I think that the dog being allowed (or encouraged) to bite in that situation or other similar situations makes it a dangerous dog-- in those circumstances or at at least currently until there is training happening. A dog that cannot be trusted off leash not to bite someone running away is a dangerous dog when off-leash at minimum.

Killing rats and biting humans does have some legal and moral distinction though.
Absolutely agreed. Irresponsibly owned, needs training, and the legal distinction is huge - especially since the dog could be the one paying. I'm just saying that as dog behavior goes it's probably fine. OWNER behavior, on the other hand....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,445 Posts
Absolutely agreed. Irresponsibly owned, needs training, and the legal distinction is huge - especially since the dog could be the one paying. I'm just saying that as dog behavior goes it's probably fine. OWNER behavior, on the other hand....
(I did edit my response a bit to be more concise in my wording)


I think that even a Dutch Shepherd who will bite an unknown human JUST for running away isn't a candidate as a stable guard dog or good off-leash dog. The drive might be there but to go after a total unknown person in an strange house without the owner even there? That seems a risk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,932 Posts
(I did edit my response a bit to be more concise in my wording)


I think that even a Dutch Shepherd who will bite an unknown human JUST for running away isn't a candidate as a stable guard dog or good off-leash dog. The drive might be there but to go after a total unknown person in an strange house without the owner even there? That seems a risk
I don't think it's a great off leash dog in the absence of lots of training not to bite something running away happening between now and letting it off leash, evr. Frankly that's reallllly common base behavior for a lot of herders, especially the more intense breeds like mals and dutch shepherds. To me it seems less unstable/unsuitable as a guard dog or anything else than 'this dog has had no training at all in NOT doing that thing, and in BEING a guard dog' , or even encouragement to do exactly the wrong thing.

I could be wrong, but it's just... so totally typical as what they do before they get some training and impulse control in many of them that it doesn't raise any red flag at all for me regarding the DOG. At least in the absence of more detail.

ETA: Not that that will stop the dog being put down or the owner being sued for doing it!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,384 Posts
The OP said they would call the cops next time. Not fully disclosed in the post exactly what the neighbor text them to be more alarmed. but the post didn't say the neighbor said the homeless people had broken into the home or were seen in or exiting the home or how many days the homeless people had been there? I don't know what you would tell the cops that would matter to them if you called and said the neighbor said there were some homeless looking people around my property and the OP went to the property and didn't see any signs of break in when they went to put the key in the door to unlock it to go in.... What would you tell the cops .. ???? That the cops would tell you to check the property for any signs of a break in and if not come in and fill out a report with descriptions of the individuals. OP didn't say if they really knew or not that someone was inside when they entered, and no one knows if the intruder was leaving or just laying in wait for the OP when the OP came into his property to check it out? And what the intruders first reaction towards the dog was when the dog directly found them.. (what do they do the military dogs they try to hit beat on them for advancing, yeah like that works well) Am sure trying to get out the window away from an unexpected dog became the priority. And the dog held them..

I would do the same thing.. if there was signs of a break in... yes would back off and call the cops... not that they would come, but am sure they would stay on the phone with me while I checked it out (sent the dogs in ahead of me) lol ... I wouldn't go in alone or with out my dogs.. and you right you put your dogs life in danger just like the one house who had their dog outside a pit bull behind a fence, they walked up to the house at night shot the barking dog in the head right at the fence, then shot the house up... Dog never stood a chance but the owners were alerted in enough time to take cover and were unharmed ...
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
53 Posts
Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Was this the first time you sent him after someone?
For the last time I didn't send him after someone. It's not a strange house to him. He had been there with me for 2 weeks cleaning the house up after the last tenants moved. I had no idea anyone was in the house, but I did want to sneak up just in case. My dog did his job. Some of you are acting as if I sicked the dog on the man.
What my dog did is no different if you and your dog were out and upon arriving home some stranger was in your house. I hope your dog would have enough drive to do the same thing
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,700 Posts
I would do the same thing.. if there was signs of a break in... yes would back off and call the cops... not that they would come, but am sure they would stay on the phone with me while I checked it out (sent the dogs in ahead of me) lol ... I wouldn't go in alone or with out my dogs..
Then you'd be acting incredibly irresponsibly. At the very least, if you know nothing about who's in the house, there's really nothing to say that it's not, say, some kids messing around, or an elder with dementia who has entered thinking it's their own place.

This is not an emergency. There is no need to flush any person who might be there out at this very second. It's an empty property.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,932 Posts
For the last time I didn't send him after someone. It's not a strange house to him. He had been there with me for 2 weeks cleaning the house up after the last tenants moved. I had no idea anyone was in the house, but I did want to sneak up just in case. My dog did his job. Some of you are acting as if I sicked the dog on the man.
What my dog did is no different if you and your dog were out and upon arriving home some stranger was in your house. I hope your dog would have enough drive to do the same thing
I would hope my dogs would have enough sense not to bite anyone they found in a location they do not live. Protecting their home - maybe, one of them, and I don't like it because most home intruders have guns and my dog does not. I like my dog. I like my dogs alive.

BUT, this isn't your house. No it's not a strange location but my dogs do not get to guard locations they are at for a couple of weeks. It's just not on.

I mean I'm reassured that he didn't get 'set' on the person, but um. No. This is not the same as protecting your home and even if it was my home I'd rather be stolen from than have a dead dog. Protect my LIFE, sure. My property? No. And I've worked hard to make sure they *don't*. It only kind of worked with the GSD mutt, but he calls off and I am more likely to call him off than encourage him on any level. The others? Don't even WAKE UP to someone walking unannounced into the house (it's happened, this is not a metaphor or hyperbole - and thank god for that, because it was a couple of teenage boys that are my son's friends, but NOT KNOWN to the dogs).

Again: GSD mix is a big, powerful dog, but he's no match for a freaking firearm.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,932 Posts
Then you'd be acting incredibly irresponsibly. At the very least, if you know nothing about who's in the house, there's really nothing to say that it's not, say, some kids messing around, or an elder with dementia who has entered thinking it's their own place.

This is not an emergency. There is no need to flush any person who might be there out at this very second. It's an empty property.
Yeah, this is wildly, wildly, different than protecting livestock on a farm or protecting an owner. This is protecting empty property and I'm not sure we can call it protecting when the dog's only association with it is spending 2 weeks there cleaning. It'd be like my dog 'protecting' the agility field or building she's had classes or a boarding kennel. How about no?

And again, kids messing around are possible. Someone elderly with dementia. Someone ripping out the copper - carrying a gun.

SERIOUSLY? LET THE PROPERTY GO. WTF. Saving your life, protecting the owner, protecting the HOME, protecting other animals? Fiiiiine. Protecting a vacant piece of property is like me deciding to get into a fist fight with a mugger to stop them from stealing my phone. Only worse, because at least in that case it's only my own life I'm risking and there's no one who's going to come put me down for having done it, just potentially sue me. (Again, castle laws don't apply for vacant property).

And, as was mentioned, picking up the phone and calling the cops instead of waltzing in with or without a dog would have been a lot safer all around (though OP said he'd do that, so it's a non-issue for them, just Patricia).
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
53 Posts
Discussion Starter · #40 ·
Yeah, this is wildly, wildly, different than protecting livestock on a farm or protecting an owner. This is protecting empty property and I'm not sure we can call it protecting when the dog's only association with it is spending 2 weeks there cleaning. It'd be like my dog 'protecting' the agility field or building she's had classes or a boarding kennel. How about no?

And again, kids messing around are possible. Someone elderly with dementia. Someone ripping out the copper - carrying a gun.

SERIOUSLY? LET THE PROPERTY GO. WTF. Saving your life, protecting the owner, protecting the HOME, protecting other animals? Fiiiiine. Protecting a vacant piece of property is like me deciding to get into a fist fight with a mugger to stop them from stealing my phone. Only worse, because at least in that case it's only my own life I'm risking and there's no one who's going to come put me down for having done it, just potentially sue me. (Again, castle laws don't apply for vacant property).

And, as was mentioned, picking up the phone and calling the cops instead of waltzing in with or without a dog would have been a lot safer all around (though OP said he'd do that, so it's a non-issue for them, just Patricia).
The hell with that. I bought that property. I pay taxes on it. I pay for the upkeep. But you're saying that I should just ignore it, because there may be disrespectful kids or an old man with dementia inside. The hell with that. It's mine, I own it, and if you choose to enter do so at your own risk. Your mind set is what's wrong with America now. It's like I tell my son, you can do stupid things if you want but be prepared to deal with the consequences.
The right thing for people to do is don't bother things that don't belong to you. Just look at this situation. A person broke into my house. It doesn't matter if I live there or burn it to the ground. It's mine. I'm not going to try to be politically correct. If the guy or whomever might have been inside got hurt it's on them. They shouldn't have been there in the first place. You PC people amaze me.
 
21 - 40 of 111 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top