[no1daddythepitbullfan]

I've heard different opinions from so many people regarding if the American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier are the same breed or not. Some people have said they're the same just with different names, some people have said they're different breeds. Which one is it? I am challenging everyone on this site to give me the best explanation. The answer may be on another website, but if there is I haven't found it. I really want to know the answer to this question!

Thanks!

 

[Pepper]

Okay, I know there are the American Staffordshire terrier, and the Staffordshire terrier..

Those are two seperate breeds according to the AKC.

Here's a page for a Staffy....http://www.akc.org/breeds/staffordshire_bull_terrier/index.cfm

Here's a page for an American staffy...http://www.akc.org/breeds/american_staffordshire_terrier/index.cfm

 

[Tankstar]

They are all different breeds, but also very similer.

American staffs are largest.
american pitsbulls are medium.
and staffordshire terriers are smallest.

SBT is smallest at about 14-16 inchs at sholder and weight in at around 24 to 32 lbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staffordshire_Bull_Terrier

AST is 19-21 inchs at sholder and weight in at 61-88LBS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Staffordshire_Terrier

APBT is 18-22 inchs and weight ranges from 22-110lbs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Pit_Bull_Terrier

They are all essentialy bred for the same type of work.

Im sure spicy and a few others can easily explain alot more then I can. And correct me if i am wrong about anything.

 

[Spicy1_VV]

That's because of lot of answer would be based on opinion and your POV.

Basically they are the same but different now due to time being bred apart. Think like how coonhounds developed. However they are also still interbred and it all depends on what you are breeding for. They share some similarity and some distinct differences. At times there are exceptions but most the time you can tell the difference on looks alone.

I'm going to comment on Tanksters post, or more like pose a question. If AST are the largest then why does it say 88lbs for them but 110lbs for APBT? If SBT are the smallest seems like 22lbs would be smaller then 24lbs? Any I wouldn't recommend Wiki, not that it doesn't have good info at times but most anyone can write to that. I've seen some breed info change on a couple breeds back and forth being edited by 2 "battling" people wanting their opinion to be listed.

For my own answer

They all came from the same dogs more then likely bulldog and terrier crosses. As did the Bull Terrier another breed. However these dogs were bred in separate directions.

The American Pit Bull Terrier was imported into the US (although they have the name American) from Europe for the main purpose of pit fighting. In 1898 the UKC was established to keep pedigree record, fighting records and dogs could obtain CH titles for pit wins. In 1935 AKC did accept the breed but still wanted to distance themselves from the dog fighting aspect for the most part. So they used the name Staffordshire Terrier, the dogs that were registered as Staffordshire Terriers were APBTs. In 1972 they changed the name to American Staffordshire Terrier. They also recognized the Staffordshire Bull Terrier which had already been recognized by the KC (in England). The SBT had already been developing separate prior to the name AST coming into existence by the AKC and leading to change of the APBT. Genetically speaking AST and APBT are still the same breed, although the typically now very distinct. It is like having different types in any breed that are recognizable either through physical differences or temperament/drive differences or both. If AKC had chose to use the name APBT there wouldn't be so much controversy or confusion. They would simply be referred to as the show, AKC or bench version of the breed. Not that there are not many APBTs simply bred for show, pets or whatever now days, but this happens to most all breeds or those that gain popularity anyway. If someone says APBT and AST are the same they are correct, if someone says APBT and AST are different they are correct.

The AST has no weight min or max nor a desirable range. I see what I commented on before says 61-88lbs, not sure where they got that number. I know several AST who are 45-55lbs including CHs. Many breeders have bred them up in size, a lot in the 80lbs range or above too. Their size is to be 17-19 inches. Even smaller AST who still carry the old type look (that of their APBT ancestors) still seem to typically have a distinct look. I think they usually have more of a table top back, not as square- just a touch longer, then their head really stands out whether they have a narrower head or the broad skull something about it just says AST.

Opposite of the AST the APBT has no desired/required height range what so ever and has a desired weight of 35-60lbs for males in good condition and 30-50lbs for females in good condition. Above all else is proportion and not so much weight. In terms of conformation alone a proportionate correct male at 30lbs or 65lbs would be more desirable then a very poor 45lbs male. Same with female. There is a little difference in some standards as well, which might allow for bigger/smaller ranges. However 110lbs, that would have to be a freak. Not impossible but wouldn't be seen very often, unless the dog is obese its not typical. I also don't think we should list above average in size as being normal. I have seen huge over sized dogs in other breeds so it does happen mainly through byb/breeding for size even if one isn't cross breeding but those certainly are not standard dogs. They often are not only over sized but lack the correct balance. In terms of their build and looks the APBT in general usually has less type and conformity.

The SBT size 14-16inches and 24-34lbs for females and 28-38lbs for males. Their proportions typically lend for them to carry more weight on a shorter/wider frame. At least in most of the show dogs. Also with a shorter muzzle and broad skull.

As stated some are still interbred and there are also bloodlines based on the different breeds together. You can register an AST or SBT as an APBT. The only way to register an "APBT" as an AST is if they come from an unbroken AKC pedigree, which means they are essentially AST anyway although registered under APBT. You can have a dog that is "both" yet it is always going to be registered as an APBT from AST/AKC lines and never the other way around. This really has nothing to do with the actual separation of breeds but more how the AKC works with their registration. The stud books are closed and no one new stock is allowed in, only exceptions are to say dogs registered under FCI recognized foreign registry.

 

[PitBully]

All three breeds come from the "bull and terrier" type dogs of England, Ireland and Scotland. The staffordshire was and still used for fighting occasionally, but not as "strictly" or (this is debated) as successfully as their larger, more powerful American counterparts.

The APBT was developed for the sole purpose of fighting. Their canine English, Irish and Scottish ancestors came to this country with their owners and were utilized for fighting. End of discussion. APBT's are the only strictly fighting "bull and terrier" cross perfected. No other Bull and Terrier cross has extensive bloodlines for combating like the APBT. They make lovely pets and love humans. Dogs, however, are a different situation.

The AST came from the same "bull and terriers" that created the APBT. Their owners however didn't want their "pitbulls" to combat other dogs so they eventually started their own registry for "non-fighting pitbulls." (Tagging on the name, American Stafforeshire Terrier, of course.)

AST physically is the bull and terrier perfected in every manner. However, their working drive has been crippled. Some are involved with weight pull, agility, bite work, etc, but any involvement with animals, such as dog fighting or hunting lacks seriously. They were bred not to be aggressive towards other dogs. Most are friendly with animals, some may not be. Dog aggression isn't a desired trait, but it may linger based on what dogs created them in the first place.

Staffy bulls (as I affectionately call them) are smaller bull and terrier crosses that dabbed in dog fighting but never "flew off" into it like the APBT. They are absolute dolls and I plan to adopt or purchase one in the future.

PB

Examples of the breeds:


APBT

AST

SBT

PB

 

[Spicy1_VV]

No it is actually AKC who registered them as AST not from a registry started for non fighting APBT. You can check if you believe me trying to mislead.

These are my preferred AST examples.

I realize many people like the larger heavier set AST, but I really don't like em. The one posted ain't too bad even though not my cup of tea. I like the ones closer to the size or build of APBT. (of course why wouldn't I LOL) I have seen some grossly overdone ones. Yuck.

That is a good way of putting it, the fighting aspect. Where APBT being most successful in this and their main use.

That is a beautiful APBT btw, reminds me of my little bitch so much.

 

[PitBully]

No it is actually AKC who registered them as AST not from a registry started for non fighting APBT. You can check if you believe me trying to mislead.

Interesting. I always thought otherwise. Well when you are wrong, you are wrong.

PB

 

[Mr Pooch]

SBT

PB

Great info Spicey and PB.

One thing i'd like to add is something about the SBT.

PB,you see the SBT you have posted its a great specimen and show quality no doubt.
The thing is living in London,England i can count the number of times ive seen an SBT that looks like that on both my hands.

I see those SBT on tv or at dog events/shows (that particular SBT conforms to the standard written by the KC way back,dont ask me why but when you do spot one like that we call them *king staffs* )

Now obviously after the KC made the SBT an offical breed in 1934/5?? the show breeders bred for that short legged,large headed pooch.

Thing is ive learnt alot about the origins of SBT (way after i should have) from reading various threads here that led me to research for my inquiring mind.

Thing is the original SBT (obviously bred from bull and terriers) were quite a bit leggier and more *terrier* faced than that of the show SBT.

I believe many of Englands SBT are the legacy of the breeders who didnt go the show direction but rather bred the more game dog keeping its pit fighting dog looks more so than the dogs you see at crufts etc.

BYB no doubt but all papered up (KC registered) and carrying bloodlines from the 1st SBT (maybe before the breed was reconised officially)

I would bet the US has more correctly cormformed SBT than England does.

Heres quite a few examples (picture wise) of what im talking about.....

CH Gentleman Jim,a photo from 1936,see how he differs from the above pooch,leggier,thinner muzzle and to me better looking...

This is Lazy,my bitches father,he is more similar to the SBT PB posted (structure wise)

This dog also has that look too...

Below i'll post the SBT that you'll be more likely to see if you come to England,leggier less stubby dogs weighing more than 38lbs (i'd say 50lbs minimum)

 

[Mr Pooch]

These are all London SBT....

 

[Mr Pooch]

ETA: i didnt realise the AST was so jowly,they resemble the American bullie somewhat,is that part of the AB's breed mix?

 

[PitBully]

Mr. Pooch:

I certainly don't see SBT leggier in the U.S. I know they exist overseas. Something about American dogs; bigger and larger, not always better imo.

I like the leggier SBT's for their athleticism and the show version SBT for their stocky appearance. I can't seem to help myself, little staffy bulls are so adorable. I personally prefer the show variety. Kind of funny considering I prefer true APBT in form than anything else mislead admirers think they look like.

I did see a website that listed all the "SBT" fighting champions but nothing in comparison to the APBT.

BTW, most show variety of the AST have jowly, stockier and larger dogs. Truthfully most I have seen are more a like to APBT appearance. I just take a liking to all bully breeds in general. American bulldogs, American bullies, etc. I love them all.

PB