[Max'sHuman]

Hey all,

So after Max's ibuprofen incident we decided to switch him from Wellness CORE because of the high protein content. I realize he still needs good quality proteins though so after looking around some I decided to buy a bag of Innova Red Meat Small Bites. At first I liked that it had a slightly higher fat content because apparently the fats from red meats are good for dogs who have kidney problems (we're not sure the extent to which his kidneys were damaged after the incident, his tests are OK now, but he definitely took a hit). I don't remember where I saw that though. Anyway now I guess I'm doubting myself a bit about whether the fat content is too high or if this is the best food. I mean at this point we just have to try it and see how he does. But I'm just curious if any of you all have tried out this food and what you thought of it. I just want the best food I can get for him that isn't super high in protein and that might promote good kidney health. I'm thinking under 30% protein is probably good. Anyway, experiences? Thoughts?

 

[MoonStr80]

I'm curious. What breed, & Weight is Max?

 

[Max'sHuman]

Max is a 16 lb. terrier mix...we suspect part doxie and part JRT and part gosh-only-knows.

 

[MoonStr80]

I think the Red Meat for small bites are tad to high for Max. I think you should stick with the low-fat foods such as Wellness Core Reduced Fat also Innova Low Fat Adult Dry Dog Food. I'm not aware about Kidney disease, if I were you I'd stick with home cooking it is a ugly painful disease for anybody

Read this ..
Dog Aware - Kidney Disease in Dogs

 

[Max'sHuman]

Thanks for the tips. Ironically that is the website that led me to thinking about this food. His blood panel and urinalysis place him outside of the realm of having kidney disease. We do know that they were injured though during the course of the incident so we are just trying to take precautions.

Anyway, from that website I gathered that low(er) but not neccesarily low protein, good quality, high fat proteins are ideal. They specifically suggested red meats which is why I thought this food might be good. It's a fairly typical protein amount for a high quality food, albeit lower than most of the grain free, high-protein diets. It also had the lowest amounts of phosporous. I guess this is the quote that influenced me:

"When developing a diet for your dog with kidney failure, the goal is to feed moderate to high fat, moderate amounts of high quality protein, low phosphorus, and low phosphorus carbohydrates to fill in."

So that was my thought process. I realize though that there are some good arguments out there against a lot of fat in the diet of small or inactive dogs. However, I do think Max isn't a total couch potato we walk one or two miles every day.

I don't know. Would you still stand by your initial opinion?

Any other opinions out there? Or better yet, experience with this food?

 

[Kathyy]

My dogs thrive on more fat. It is a better energy source for dogs than carbohydrates. Sassy has kidney disease and for 21 months now I have been cooking for her. It has been high fat for months and months. The more protein and fat she gets the more energy she has. Sick, young and old dogs need good amounts of fat and protein. Anyway, what are the amylase and lipase numbers from the blood tests? Those are the specific enzymes from the pancreas you need to worry about. If they are high then watch the fat fed. I am skating on thin ice feeding 40% fat calories as Sassy's amylase is high normal.

If you are trying to protect his kidneys would it make sense to find a food with lower phosphorus/calcium levels?

Sedona from Dogster has a good thread going now on this.
http://www.dogster.com/forums/Food_and_Nutrition/thread/609464

 

[Max'sHuman]

Thanks for the link Kathyy. The food is even fattier than I thought. Hmmm, this is definitely food for thought. I haven't opened the bag yet so I think I may wait. I don't know the amylase and lipase counts. I only was looking at the BUN and creatinine which I guess were the only ones that came out abnormal at one point (both well within normal now) and the urine specific gravity which was abnormal and is normal now.

This is part of the issue: he was definitely sick, but now the numbers you use to determine these things have normalized. That said, after an ibuprofen overdose his kidneys are more fragile than the average dog so while I don't know that he would technically qualify as having kidney disease, I do want to try to find ways to protect them and promote kidney health knowing that this is a weaker point for him.

You mentioned you home cook...what kind of recipes do you use? Is it possible to make one batch and then use it throughout the week or do you cook every day? How did you figure out the right amount to feed? Again, thanks so much for the information Kathyy.

 

[Sunshyne]

I feed Innova red meat small bites and the chicken flavor small bites, we rotate. Chloe has done amazingly well on it. She is a Pug, so prone to overweight issues, but she has maintained the breed standard weight on it (with lots of exercise too!).

I tried a variety of foods, and this has cooperated the best with her. Full disclosure: she does get Nature's Variety raw medallions for her a.m. meal, Innova kibble in the p.m.

She has had bloodwork run twice in the past six months (one routine and one per my request) and everything checks out in normal range and she is very healthy, active, has a soft fluffy coat and firm and regular stools.

Good luck with Max!

 

[Kathyy]

I use information from dogaware and B-Naturals. Lew Olsen at B-Naturals has citations for a lot of her info for further reading. The articles there include a series published in Whole Dog Journal on feeding dogs.

I cook every four days so I don't have to freeze the food. It really isn't much trouble cooking daily either. Big batches are harder for me to handle for some reason. I had been making a delicious mush of rice, meat and veggies cooked together but her highness thinks the plate looks nicer with the foods cooked separately. I plan a minimum of 1 gram protein per pound of dog and 20 calories per pound of dog. Since I must watch her phosphorus I use a scale to measure everything but you wouldn't have to with a dog on an unrestricted diet. Use nutritiondata.com to figure out how your recipe looks, it is easy to do. Then I plan as much meat protein as I can staying in my phosphorus limit adjusting the starch so she is getting enough calories. Sassy doesn't have elevated phosphorus but she feels better with less and the vet thinks it is important to limit it if the labs are showing a problem.

If Max's BUN, creatinine and urine SG are normal then there isn't any reason to feed anything but regular food. If you want to feed kibble then wet it down or add a topper of canned or fresh food. Here is a handy calculator for water consumption. If nothing else make sure he gets at least this amount of water daily - free or in food.http://http://www.mycockerspaniel.com/h2o.htm

 

[Max'sHuman]

If Max's BUN, creatinine and urine SG are normal then there isn't any reason to feed anything but regular food.

That's what I was thinking. I just wanted to pick a regular food that was especially kidney-friendly if that makes sense. That may seem a little paranoid, but I figure I can't be too careful with his health. So anyway the goal was to find a kibble of the regular protein (as opposed to high-protein variety) variety that would be a healthy choice.

Maybe instead of worrying so much about it I should just try it and see how he does on it. The vet said the protein level was fine and didn't comment on the fat.

I guess one reason I worried about it is that she said she hadn't heard of Innova dog food and didn't seem to know anything about it. Plus after I told her the protein level she said I didn't need to keep him on low protein that long that I could move him back up to regular after a month. But pardon me if I'm wrong, 24% is regular protein. The 30 and 40% food that he was on are HIGH protein.

I don't know I'm just starting to doubt myself. I just wish she had been familiar with the food and had been able to give me a little more direction. I mean they had said a lower protein food for a month might be good, but since this was a different vet reading the other vet's notes I don't know what the heck is supposed to be right. Did they mean lower than the 30% he was on? Not to mention the food they were mentioning was Science Diet and I would really prefer not to feed Science Diet. Ugh...do you see why I'm confused or doubtful? I think I may just have to call them on Monday and ask all this again.

Oh and I guess another factor in the high fat equation is half of his means are NB canned food which is pretty low fat so maybe it will balance out.

 

[MoonStr80]

Thanks for the tips. Ironically that is the website that led me to thinking about this food. His blood panel and urinalysis place him outside of the realm of having kidney disease. We do know that they were injured though during the course of the incident so we are just trying to take precautions.

Anyway, from that website I gathered that low(er) but not neccesarily low protein, good quality, high fat proteins are ideal. They specifically suggested red meats which is why I thought this food might be good. It's a fairly typical protein amount for a high quality food, albeit lower than most of the grain free, high-protein diets. It also had the lowest amounts of phosporous. I guess this is the quote that influenced me:

"When developing a diet for your dog with kidney failure, the goal is to feed moderate to high fat, moderate amounts of high quality protein, low phosphorus, and low phosphorus carbohydrates to fill in."

So that was my thought process. I realize though that there are some good arguments out there against a lot of fat in the diet of small or inactive dogs. However, I do think Max isn't a total couch potato we walk one or two miles every day.

I don't know. Would you still stand by your initial opinion?

Any other opinions out there? Or better yet, experience with this food?

I just would be careful with the high fat if Max had kidney issues in the past, maybe add veggie and less kibbles to balance it out etc