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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I’ve had a beautiful ‘American Indian Dog’ for ten years. She’s a wonderful friend and companion. She’s also a beautiful dog. Recently I had her DNA done. Turns out she’s NOT an AID but an Australian Kelpie, Siberian Husky mix. There are about a dozen dogs on the DNA website that are from the same kennel which is still selling these dogs as AID. Does this bother anyone else?BMK
 

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It's my understanding that the American Indian Dog is a fairly recent development, with the goal of recreating the look of native dogs, and has several breeds behind it, including Siberian Husky.
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Look at the Song Dog Kennels website. The story is that Kim LaFlame started collecting ‘old dogs of the America’s’ 50 odd years ago and these are the basis of his breeding stock. No Australian dogs or Siberian huskies. BMK
 

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Native dogs were not a breed then so they cannot be a breed now. To restore a breed there has to of course be a breed to begin with, but also there has to be remaining dogs to breed off of. He is trying to recreate a breed that never existed as Native American dogs weren't exactly selectively bred, therefore were not purebred.

I am well aware of La Flamme and heard about his "breeding program" growing up, that is my home town and he is a family acquaintance. I'm not here to tarnish his name, from what I know he's a decent man and his intentions are good. As I got deeper into the dog world it became more apparent that Indian dogs were an aesthetic mix to create what some may think a Native American dog may have looked like. Even with that goal in mind I don't see being achieved, his dogs are mixes of many breeds therefore lack consistency. As far as I know his dogs also are purely companion dogs, not working or sporting. He uses working breeds which means plenty of these dogs may not turn out with suitable companion temperaments. He does not utilize any modern health screening options out there which is key to ethical breeding. I don't think he even keeps hand written pedigrees, so keeping track of the lineage is non existent and likely contributes to the inconsistency of his dogs.

If someone is trying to create a breed there are many steps. Consistency, breed purpose and a clear goal come to mind.

Does it bother me? Not really, it hasn't gotten much traction and seems to be fading out. Even his website talks about breeding backward so Im not sure what you expected the DNA results to show. It's important to do thorough research when purchasing a dog.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Interesting comment but the entire purpose and story behind the American Indian Dog is that Kim traveled around to various reservations and rescued examples of the ‘old dogs’ that had not been too polluted with other bloodlines. According to Kim his breeding practices for dogs follow the same methods used by the Native Americans for breeding these dogs. He compares the dog breeding techniques to the methods used by Plains Indians to breed horses. Nothing has ever been said about these dogs being merely ‘look alikes’ when compared to the old dogs of paintings and such. I have actual paperwork listing bloodlines for my dog who is supposedly an American Indian Dog (not to be confused with the Native American Indian Dogs who are considered inferior because of the breeding practices used). Perhaps Kim is ‘decent man’ with good intentions, but the fact remains that his very sophisticated websites is selling a product that does not exist. How does someone get away with that? BMK
 

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Perhaps Kim is ‘decent man’ with good intentions, but the fact remains that his very sophisticated websites is selling a product that does not exist. How does someone get away with that? BMK
He gets away with it for the same reason a lot of people get away with things... because he can. If you looks at the "puppies" page of the website, a lot of them look like Kelpie or Sibe crosses. A couple look like Malinois crosses, and one looks like a Lab mix.
 

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I've read that if you let dogs mix on their own for enough generations you always end up with something medium size and kind of like a shepherd cross in appearance. Have no idea if that's true, but I always thought that was what Native dogs were like.

As to how someone can get away with something in the dog world, consider the doodle craze. For Pete's sake, why not get an actual poodle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I think it’s true that dogs breeding at will come out medium sized with brown or golden coats. As for the AID ‘breed’ I guess I’m really just disappointed that my trust was misplaced. Perhaps I’m too naive but I really bought the story and have repeated it to so many people who admired my American Indian Dog. Yep, there are lots of scams in dog breeding. I just didn’t think I’d fall for one. As for my beautiful girl, I’m now calling her the Awesome Aussie. Thanks for the responses. BMK
 

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LaFlamme is far from the only person trying to recreate an "Indian" breed that never existed, there are plenty of breeder pages and Facebook groups with the same claims. Native American reserves aren't hiding this mythical breed, they have the same breeds and mutts that we do. You should take notice that all these various "Indian" dog breeders are producing VERY different looking dogs, from malamute type dogs to kelpie to Pyrenees, because in the end they are experimental mutts.

To me the buyer is as much to blame as the seller.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
But of course: “Buyer beware”. However, although I should have done more research, my intentions were honest. I just wanted a puppy. Kim, on the other hand, set out to trick me and other unsuspecting buyers. Intention plays a big part if you want to play the blame game. I admit to being naive, but not to cheating and lying. BMK
 

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But of course: “Buyer beware”. However, although I should have done more research, my intentions were honest. I just wanted a puppy. Kim, on the other hand, set out to trick me and other unsuspecting buyers. Intention plays a big part if you want to play the blame game. I admit to being naive, but not to cheating and lying. BMK
No I do not believe that was his intent, LaFlamme believes in what he is doing and does not think he is lying to buyers. IME he does care about his dogs and the happiness of the buyer, he simply has a skewed vision of what ideal breeding is that doesn't align with dog fanciers. He is chasing a dream of something that isn't real.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
No I do not believe that was his intent, LaFlamme believes in what he is doing and does not think he is lying to buyers. IME he does care about his dogs and the happiness of the buyer, he simply has a skewed vision of what ideal breeding is that doesn't align with dog fanciers. He is chasing a dream of something that isn't real.
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Soooo you are saying he’s out of touch with reality and should be considered mentally ill?BMK
 

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No, his standards simply aren't as high as many other dog people. It isn't that complex and it also isn't black and white. You don't have to be 'all knowing' or even well versed in a topic to be in touch with reality.
 

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Putting on my mod hat for a moment - please be careful about casually labelling people mentally ill. I know your intent wasn't to hurt people with diagnosed mental health struggles or disorders, but it contributes to the stigma around mental health issues and we want to avoid that on this forum! I absolutely sympathize with feeling like you were scammed and it's a crummy place to be in, I'm not defending the actions of the breeder, just making sure the forum stays an accepting and accommodating place for all our members. Thank you!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Putting on my mod hat for a moment - please be careful about casually labelling people mentally ill. I know your intent wasn't to hurt people with diagnosed mental health struggles or disorders, but it contributes to the stigma around mental health issues and we want to avoid that on this forum! I absolutely sympathize with feeling like you were scammed and it's a crummy place to be in, I'm not defending the actions of the breeder, just making sure the forum stays an accepting and accommodating place for all our members. Thank you!
Point taken, however I’m well aware of the prejudice against people labeled ‘mentally ill’ and am quite pleased that mental health is another area that is being seen in a clearer and more accepting fashion in our culture. ’Mentally ill’ can refer to many challenges that we all can face. For instance many types of depression. I in no way intended that comment as an insult to the owner of Song Dog Kennels. But I do believe that dedicating 50 years of ones life to convincing a buying public that these dogs are descended from the ‘old dogs’ via a sophisticated website (look it up) when DNA testing proves otherwise is more than fishy. There is a serious disconnect from reality in this behavior. And thanks, but even tho I was scammed I have a wonderful companion. BMK
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
No, his standards simply aren't as high as many other dog people. It isn't that complex and it also isn't black and white. You don't have to be 'all knowing' or even well versed in a topic to be in touch with reality.
Oh vey! I can respectfully see that we’ll never agree. I’m just wondering if you’ve ever actually read the Song Dog website carefully or are just blowing smoke. BMK
 

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I understand your intention was not malicious or derogatory, but speculating about someone's mental health publicly is still not something we feel is appropriate for this forum. I'm only asking you to take care in the future with that kind of subject and language.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I understand your intention was not malicious or derogatory, but speculating about someone's mental health publicly is still not something we feel is appropriate for this forum. I'm only asking you to take care in the future with that kind of subject and language.
I will certainly do that. Thanks. BMK
 

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I'm speaking as someone who knows more about him than you do, more about him as a person and I know that he's a loving family man.

We may not agree on his intent, that is fine, but I didn't come here to say he's a bad guy and I want that clear.

Understand this, every breed started as a mix at some point. Plenty of accepted breeds have other breeds known to be mixed in to create them. Dobermans have Rottweiler, German Pinscher etc. I don't believe that Kim ever told you they are a kennel recognized breed and that is what DNA tests would test for.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I'm speaking as someone who knows more about him than you do, more about him as a person and I know that he's a loving family man.

We may not agree on his intent, that is fine, but I didn't come here to say he's a bad guy and I want that clear.

Understand this, every breed started as a mix at some point. Plenty of accepted breeds have other breeds known to be mixed in to create them. Dobermans have Rottweiler, German Pinscher etc. I don't believe that Kim ever told you they are a kennel recognized breed and that is what DNA tests would test for.
I absolutely do not want to denigrate Kim or argue about him. My point is about the principle of the situation and honesty. AID dogs are not recognized by the American Kennel Club and he’s very clear on that. That’s not what I was looking for in a dog. But the fact remains that he’s spent 50 odd years telling the story about Indian dogs and how he’s re-recreating a breed (he does believe they were carefully bred) like the ‘old dogs’ that he grew up with on the rez. I found him to be a very pleasant person the few times I spoke with him. I’m just trying to figure things out. Take care.
 
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