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Discussion Starter #1
I’ve been reading about ovary sparing spaying procedures as well as vasectomies for males, instead of neutering. Females still have heat cyles but they’re shortened. Males still have sexual drive.
The hormones are srill present and the dogs feel that they should be engaging in reproductive behaviors. While these procedures may promote better physical health, are they ethically superior, if the dogs are essentially tormented by being denied an outlet for thei reproductive instincts that are not suppressed by these procedures?
 

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Know enough standard neutered dogs that will jump a fence after a female in heat as I know of ones that have had a Vasectomy. The want to reproduce does not turn off because you remove a dogs junk.
Same with humping it is a behavior, not a case of intact or not.
 

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My last dog was a male. He partook in a lot of unwanted behaviors before he was neutered. However, once he was, those behaviors ceased. If the hormones are no longer circulating and, if a male has never been a stud dog, then I don’t why the behaviors should continue.
 

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My last dog was a male. He partook in a lot of unwanted behaviors before he was neutered. However, once he was, those behaviors ceased. If the hormones are no longer circulating and, if a male has never been a stud dog, then I don’t why the behaviors should continue.
It really, really depends on the dog. My dog has been neutered since 6 months old (he's 3 now) and will still chase a female in heat, still tried to mount her. He will get excited if he smells a female in heat. Sometimes you will see a reduction in "unwanted" behavior after a neuter, but it is certainly not a guarantee of anything other than the dog cannot produce puppies. The "Neutering makes a better behaved dog!!" thing is a myth generated to reduce the number of unwanted litters, which in itself is a noble endeavor, but kind of misguided....

What specific unwanted behaviors are you wanting to get rid of?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I don’t have a dog at present but I’m trying to decide whether I’d get a male again. I don’t know how else to put it hut my last male dog “pleasures himself” frequently, without the aid of any objects or people, and it was not pleasant to see. He was neutered late because he was supposed to be shown hut he didn’t turn out.
Breeders that I’ve been talking to lately are advocating vasectomy for males.
That got me to thinking about whether any ofnit is ethical, since dogs don’t understand why they can’t satisfy their urges. I’m not saying that I’d allow a sog to run loose and mate with any female that was in heat. I’m just wondering if either option is truly humane.
 

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I briefly considered vasectomy for my dog, before determining that I could keep him contained and ultimately decided to leave him intact.

As far as I know, a vasectomy still allows a dog to do everything an intact male can do....except for make puppies. So I'm not sure the "ethical" issues you are concerned about are really an issue, unless you think the dog would be sad that it never has puppies ;) I think it's a viable option if you feel you cannot keep the dog contained or have other reasons altering may be necessary (boarding, contract, etc).
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I don’t think a dog would be sad about not having puppies and I don’t think a sog would be sad regardless. I am referring to a male dog’s desire to satisfy his sexual urges. As I mentioned, my dog took care of it himself until he was fixed. I don’t need to witness that again.
Beyond that, having a male going crazy in the yard because a female is in heat is not ideal either. I wouldn’t leave a dog outside for long periiods but that’s not my point.
What I’m trying to communicate is that having a male who is not allowed ro perform but still has the desire, may not be completely humane becauae it does cause the animal stress.
 

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Re: Alternatives to neutering/trad’l spaying more or less cruel?

I don’t think a dog would be sad about not having puppies and I don’t think a sog would be sad regardless. I am referring to a male dog’s desire to satisfy his sexual urges. As I mentioned, my dog took care of it himself until he was fixed. I don’t need to witness that again.
Beyond that, having a male going crazy in the yard because a female is in heat is not ideal either. I wouldn’t leave a dog outside for long periiods but that’s not my point.
What I’m trying to communicate is that having a male who is not allowed ro perform but still has the desire, may not be completely humane becauae it does cause the animal stress.
What I am saying and was referring to in my previous post is that the dog can still "perform" and satisfy his "urges, there is just no sperm being released with semen, as far as I know. I remember reading about a male dog who had a vasectomy and still regularly tied up with females. The hormones are there and the parts still work, just no swimmers getting through.

As far as having a male with intact females around, that depends a lot on your area as well as the individual dog. I don't think we have many around here, or maybe we do and my dog just doesn't care, but seeing as he often pursues spayed females that seems unlikely. Sometimes he is particularly interested in tracking a smell on a walk and I wonder if an unspayed female had passed by, but who knows.
 

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Re: Alternatives to neutering/trad’l spaying more or less cruel?

Before we all go to far to the left of center.

I have a 215lb intact English Mastiff and a GSD breeder less than a half mile from me. He has yet to tear down the fence or tear down a door to get out and off to visit.

A ton has to do with the individual dog. Also a lot of these issues are habits, and can be corrected.

Also Trish's Boxer x American bulldog mix has yet to try and escape to visit, and yes he has a very high drive.
 

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Re: Alternatives to neutering/trad’l spaying more or less cruel?

I don't see any behavioral differences with intact male dogs if proper training and management are in place. Some of the 'worst' humpers, markers, and masturbaters I've known have been early neuter males. I have also seen neutered males mount and tie with females. I've worked with dogs who are so stressed out they latch on the moment they have contact with a person have to be pried off of people's legs. Training, routine, and an increase in enrichment fixes that problem.

My intact male is regularly in areas where there are female dogs in heat (we get unaltered females at the shelter and inevitably some of them go into heat. They use outdoor runs that are just a few yards away from where I regularly train with my dog). There is no change in his behavior. The only thing I've noticed is he sometimes gets really interested in a smell patch and lick it, perhaps where an intact female urinated. But who knows.

I think in human society, we are constantly denying dogs access to things they want. Both my dogs will, without fuss, ignore the steak I leave on the coffee table. I'll bet they have the "urge" to eat food at nose level. They have just been taught that the situation is irrelevant to them. If you want to talk about what's humane and not humane in terms of dog ownership, and intensely frustrated dogs, how about those hyper dog social dogs who are choking themselves and lunging at the end of a leash the moment they see another dog? I think you are projecting human ideas of masculinity and mating desires onto dogs.
 

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Re: Alternatives to neutering/trad’l spaying more or less cruel?

I currently live in a country where it's illegal to spay or neuter dogs unless there's a medical reason to do so (though I think certain behavioral issues are considered as well). The dogs here are, by and large, content, happy, and well behaved assuming their mental and physical needs are being met (and I'm talking exercise, not intercourse). Ironically, my poodle was neutered somewhere around 8 weeks (not our choice) and has been a lifelong humper, marker, and will do behaviors like licking pee. The humping is a frustration/excitement issue in his case, and it's much improved by appropriate levels of exercise and training to settle, but he's still obnoxious about it when we're visiting other dogs (or cats...).

Personally (assuming I legally had the choice), I'd consider a vasectomy only if I was in a position where I a) felt my male dog really needed more time to mature with hormones intact AND b) I could not with reasonable certainty contain him well enough to avoid oops litters. Otherwise I'd just... leave him intact and forego the extra surgery. Or, if it was an adult dog, go for the full neuter. As for ovary-sparing spays... I'm even less of a fan. After all, leaving the ovaries in doesn't reduce the risk of mammary cancer at all. And unlike testicular cancer, mammary cancer is scary common, spreads readily, and a dog has waaaay more mammary tissue than testicular tissue. I feel like if I was going to put my dog through an invasive surgery like that I'd rather they just take the whole package. MAYBE if I had an immature, large-breed female who I genuinely couldn't keep from breeding any other way, but that's a pretty extreme scenario.
 

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I don’t have a dog at present but I’m trying to decide whether I’d get a male again. I don’t know how else to put it hut my last male dog “pleasures himself” frequently, without the aid of any objects or people, and it was not pleasant to see. He was neutered late because he was supposed to be shown hut he didn’t turn out.
Breeders that I’ve been talking to lately are advocating vasectomy for males.
That got me to thinking about whether any ofnit is ethical, since dogs don’t understand why they can’t satisfy their urges. I’m not saying that I’d allow a sog to run loose and mate with any female that was in heat. I’m just wondering if either option is truly humane.
Too much anthropomorphism in your thinking. Truly.
That said, unless there is a current physical health need to neuter a male (prostate issues and so forth), I don't. My dogs don't breed anything either. Yes, they have male "behaviors." So what? They are dogs.

Females I keep intact until age 3-4. By then I know if they are breeding worthy. If not, the concerns about pyometra and so forth increase they get spayed.

Hysterectomies and vasectomies on dogs is, IMO, over thinking it. Both still require the dog to be under anesthesia and that is the larger concern than the surgery.

If you have a non breeding (one that does not make the grade for whatever reason) and you have females in season around a lot, you might want to neuter so no mistakes are made.
 

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I don’t think a dog would be sad about not having puppies and I don’t think a sog would be sad regardless. I am referring to a male dog’s desire to satisfy his sexual urges. As I mentioned, my dog took care of it himself until he was fixed. I don’t need to witness that again.
Beyond that, having a male going crazy in the yard because a female is in heat is not ideal either. I wouldn’t leave a dog outside for long periiods but that’s not my point.
What I’m trying to communicate is that having a male who is not allowed ro perform but still has the desire, may not be completely humane because it does cause the animal stress.
Dogs are not humans, and they don't really understand that they've been sterilized or that parts are missing. It's simply not an issue. Dogs don't think about sex like humans might, either. I mean, unless there's a female in heat close by, they just don't. They're dogs.

Bottom line, you're not going to traumatize or be inhumane to your dog whatever you choose. The dog will be perfectly fine. Make the best choice for you and your lifestyle.
 

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Personally (assuming I legally had the choice), I'd consider a vasectomy only if I was in a position where I a) felt my male dog really needed more time to mature with hormones intact AND b) I could not with reasonable certainty contain him well enough to avoid oops litters. Otherwise I'd just... leave him intact and forego the extra surgery. Or, if it was an adult dog, go for the full neuter. As for ovary-sparing spays... I'm even less of a fan. After all, leaving the ovaries in doesn't reduce the risk of mammary cancer at all. And unlike testicular cancer, mammary cancer is scary common, spreads readily, and a dog has waaaay more mammary tissue than testicular tissue. I feel like if I was going to put my dog through an invasive surgery like that I'd rather they just take the whole package. MAYBE if I had an immature, large-breed female who I genuinely couldn't keep from breeding any other way, but that's a pretty extreme scenario.
My thought as well. In most cases it makes more sense to either just do it, or not do it. Sometimes a compromise isn't actually the best solution.
 

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Since Mesa is off leash most of the time and we're not interested in puppies, it made sense to spay her. I did a lot of research about ovary sparing spays and was seriously considering doing it when she went into her second heat. During her first heat she was not much different than usual. Her second heat was a different story. She was a raging, miserable b*tch! For 3 weeks I just couldn't stand her. She was snippy with other dogs, defiant with me, and just a grump. As soon as she was out of heat she went back to her self. I decided that I could not live with the possibility of dealing with her like that again. So, in October she will have a regular spay.
 
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