[waltw]

Seeing the term Alpha Roll used on a number of occasion during online reading, I wasn't sure exactly what it was and why it seemed to so aggressive. I punched the term into Google and found an article written by a Dog Trainer (Lee Charles Kelley) that I found pretty interesting.

Being new here I'm unsure if this link has been shared or not, if so I apologize.

http://leecharleskelleysblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/proper-way-to-do-alpha-roll.html

How does the article sound to you, good advice, bad advice?

 

[cshellenberger]

I think you'll find that most here strongly disagree with Alpha rolling PERIOD. It's unnecessary, proven to be complete fiction (dogs and wolves do NOT roll for dominance, they either show their bellies in submission or roll to kill and then it's usually the pack 'enforcers' that do so, NOT the pack leaders) and outdated.

OOps, hit the submit to soon...

Another thing that alpha rolling does is instill fear, which can actually LEAD to worse behavioral problems and/or the dog shutting down.

Please read...

http://dogstardaily.com/training/alpha-fallacy

http://dogstardaily.com/training/open-paw039s-no-frills-explanation-how-dogs-learn

http://dogstardaily.com/training/body-language

 

[pattymac]

Interesting article. I may just have to try that with my dog and see what she does. I don't think I've ever done that even accidently but it would be interesting to see if I get a similar reaction from her.

 

[deege39]

Interesting article. I may just have to try that with my dog and see what she does. I don't think I've ever done that even accidently but it would be interesting to see if I get a similar reaction from her.

Why would you want to do that?

 

[Nargle]

Why would you want to do that?

I think she's referring to rolling over herself while playing with the dog, like the "papa wolf" did while playing with his puppies? Apparently it makes your dog trust you more. I'm quite curious to see how Sasha would react, too.

 

[winniec777]

Poca's reaction: "Um, Mom...What are you doing? You look ridiculous. Get up. You're embarrassing me!" She actually has no reaction to that move -- tried it a long time ago.

I've read a little about Kelley. He promotes natural dog training which is an interesting concept on the surface. But I'm not sure it isn't just repackaging of standard behavioral methods. I don't know much about it, though. Would be interested in what others think who are familiar with him.

Link to his site: http://www.leecharleskelley.com/home.html

 

[pattymac]

With my luck if I did it outside, I'd roll in a pile of poop!! Maybe in the house where no one else can see me

 

[KBLover]

Wally licks the daylights out of me when I lie on the floor.

 

[tirluc]

Wally licks the daylights out of me when I lie on the floor.

try it w/ 4 licking you....it's really hard to breathe....

 

[MrsJohnnyG]

try it w/ 4 licking you....it's really hard to breathe....

Ooh, I thought three was bad enough... but yeah, they think it's hilarious when Mommy gets on the floor... they are actually LAUGHING, much the same as when they see Daddy getting a haircut -- they think that's just hilarious!

 

[PitBully]

I had an uncle that believed a man's dog should be scared of him. He is terribly old fashioned I admit and reaching his mid 70's. All the man ever owned were "bully breeds." I found this interesting because bully breeds are so sensitive towards their owners. When I let my dogs aware of something they do wrong, they make me feel guilty for correcting them because they wear it on their faces. They aim to please and when they don't, believe me, they are aware of it.

My uncle's beliefs of dogs "fearing it's owner" is too old fashioned for modern times. He's the type of man that'll roll up a paper while exclaiming, "I'll wear your hide out good if you don't git out that trash!" I've seen him alpha roll his dogs before. Something I wouldn't do but he does have healthy dogs.

PB

 

[Pai]

The Myth of the Alpha Wolf.

From one of the top wolf experts in the world.

 

[Kyllobernese]

I thought that was a well written article. Maybe it will help convince people who are alpha rolling their dogs that they should not be and it can do more harm than good.

 

[wvasko]

Forget that rolling around on the floor stuff, you people are nuts, we just got one dog and if I could get her to pull a vacuum around behind her I might consider rolling around on floor.(too much hair)

Oh yeah! Alpha Roll don't do it.

 

[hulkamaniac]

I actually use a lot of Cesar Milan's methods and I think a lot of what he says makes a ton of sense. I do not however agree with the Alpha Roll thing and I haven't read anything that indicates it's a good idea for any dog other than an extremely aggressive one. If you watch Milan, you see that most of the dogs he uses the Alpha Roll on do tend to be aggressive dogs where you could argue that it's an appropriate usage. For 90% of the dogs out there I don't think it's a usefull technique.

 

[KBLover]

Forget that rolling around on the floor stuff, you people are nuts, we just got one dog and if I could get her to pull a vacuum around behind her I might consider rolling around on floor.(too much hair)

Wally doesn't shed - so that's one plus for me

I like that idea though. Maybe I'll work on this. Think a 13-lb dog could pull a vacuum?

 

[wvasko]

I actually use a lot of Cesar Milan's methods and I think a lot of what he says makes a ton of sense. I do not however agree with the Alpha Roll thing and I haven't read anything that indicates it's a good idea for any dog other than an extremely aggressive one. If you watch Milan, you see that most of the dogs he uses the Alpha Roll on do tend to be aggressive dogs where you could argue that it's an appropriate usage. For 90% of the dogs out there I don't think it's a usefull technique.

Ok, here's the problem I see, you have a 125 lb (pick your breed) that lives to bite when somebody or something touches him. Now unless there are a lot of 250 lb owners that own these possible 125 lb agressive dogs, there is gonna be a lot of hurt goin on. I know Cesar doesn't weigh that much, Oh! yes I forgot with the weight you should have Cesar's reflexes. Yes I see ERs all over the states ordering extra units of blood for the rush of dog bite customers.

 

[Pai]

Thing is, you can physically bully your dog into assuming the position of 'submission' all you want -- but if the dog doesn't respect you, it's not going to do anything other than make him dislike you more. So you may eventually get a dog that 'behaves' but has a horrible relationship with you because outside of physical force, you do not act in any way that a dog sees as 'fair' and in charge.

Wild wolf and dog packs do not normally beat each other up constantly in order to maintain order -- a pack is a cooperative FAMILY, not a constant struggle for 'dominanace'. The belief in 'alphas' and 'dominance training' is wrong and has been wrong for years, as the video I linked explained.

Pack leadership is not about alpha rolls or choking dogs or whatever. You do not earn a dog's respect and love with physical force.

 

[cshellenberger]

I actually use a lot of Cesar Milan's methods and I think a lot of what he says makes a ton of sense. I do not however agree with the Alpha Roll thing and I haven't read anything that indicates it's a good idea for any dog other than an extremely aggressive one. If you watch Milan, you see that most of the dogs he uses the Alpha Roll on do tend to be aggressive dogs where you could argue that it's an appropriate usage. For 90% of the dogs out there I don't think it's a usefull technique.

Milan has been bitten by nearly ALL the dogs he rolls, they just very seldom show it. Alpha rollin an extreamely aggro dog WILL get you bitten it will also get you:

A. A dog that shuts down later to explode and cause a bite that causes the dog to be euthinized (several of the dogs you've seen Milan do this had to be euthinized within weeks of Milans training).

Or

B. Well, there is no B.

If you wish to rehab an aggro dog I suggest you red Jean Donaldson, Dr. Ian Dunbar or Pamela Dennison, thier methods are FAR more reliable and more safe.

 

[hulkamaniac]

Ok, here's the problem I see, you have a 125 lb (pick your breed) that lives to bite when somebody or something touches him. Now unless there are a lot of 250 lb owners that own these possible 125 lb agressive dogs, there is gonna be a lot of hurt goin on. I know Cesar doesn't weigh that much, Oh! yes I forgot with the weight you should have Cesar's reflexes. Yes I see ERs all over the states ordering extra units of blood for the rush of dog bite customers.

I'm just pointing out the kind of dogs that Cesar uses the Alpha Roll on. You don't normally see him using it on a dog that pulls on a leash or doesn't listen or whatever. You don't always see him using it on dogs that are vicious. And if people would bother reading his books you'd find that he recommends it only be used by experts or under the supervision of an expert because it a dangerous maneuver.