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Can I get that link again to report the reaction? I think it will be months to a year before we are ready to get another dog. She was like a child to the whole family and we feel we need to honor her memory a little longer before we can commit to adopting another one. But when we are ready we will go to the same shelter where we got her. And we will try to find a better vet but finding a vet in MS that doesn't vaccinate every year will be difficult. I have a hard enough time explaining to my general practitioner that I don't need an antibiotic when it is the flu virus I have. I'm sure they learn in medical school the difference between a virus and bacterium and that antibiotics are over-prescribed in this country, not to mention have no affect on viruses. But still they dole them out like candy despite being advised not to by the CDC because of kick-backs they get from the pharmaceutical companies. So I'm sure I'm going to have to go to battle with any Vet here about annuals no matter what all the current and new research shows is best for pets.

What part of MS? I'm from there and we have other members who live in the state and may be able to help you.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
Can I get that link again to report the reaction? .
Sorry about that, information is below.

You can find a homeopathic/holistic veterinarian near you by searching at the following links: American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association http://www.holisticvetlist.com/, Academy of Veterinary Homeopathy http://www.theavh.org/referral/index.php . Remember, all vaccinations except for rabies are optional, the law does not require you to vacciante your dogs against distemper, hepatitis, parvo, etc..., so you are the one to make the final choice about what your dogs receive, not your veterinarian, and if they are bullying you into a protocol that you are not comfortable with, then you need to look for another veterinary care provider.


http://www.dogs4dogs.com/truth4dogs.html

Report adverse reactions (side effects) of vaccines here:

This is a new page from the AVMA: http://www.avma.org/animal_health/reporting_adverse_events.asp
On-line reporting form: https://web01.aphis.usda.gov/CVB/adverseeventreport.nsf/Adverse Event Report Form?OpenForm You'll need to get a lot of the information from your vet. Do not expect your vet to make the report. Underreporting is commonplace.

More reporting information and options: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/vet_biologics/vb_adverse_event.shtml

The FDA admits that vaccines are not tested for safety except by vaccine manufacturing companies. Reporting agencies report that vets do not reliably report adverse reactions. (The FDA's estimate for all medical communities is 1%.) The FDA relies on the public to report problems once the drug or biologic is released into the public.
 

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Vaccinations are an issue I get very angry about. On our boarding kennels website we spell out that triennial is fine as far as we are concerned, but still the vets pressure owners to have annual boosters and if they mention they are going to be kenneled insist that we (!!) require it to accept their dog. We have never required it for the reasons given earlier in the thread, that it is self-limiting, not serious in a healthy dog and all strains are not necessarily covered.

Many owners are appreciative of our attitude, but others say they have to take the vet's advice. One client recently arrived with a newly vaccinated dog and I pointed out that he didn't need to get the boosters done for our benefit; he replied that the vet had said it was unnecessary but the kennels insisted on it! He was not a happy bunny.

I'll post again on my blog with some references to here and hope that more people start to absorb the fact that annual vaccinations are all about covering the practice's running costs. Thanks for all the details, extremely useful Kris :)
 

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I really wish I had seen this on Monday. :( We took our beloved old dog to the vet on Tuesday for her annual vaccinations. The only thing the vet warned us about is that she might cough a bit in reaction to the bordetella vaccine. He didn't mention anything about it being unnecessary. She was an inside dog that never came in contact with other dogs. She was almost 17 yrs. old but seemed like she would live months if not a year longer. However, after getting vaccinated she seemed really tired/weak for the rest of the evening, slept late and then in the morning she started wheezing, collapsed on the floor, then convulsed and died within a minute. We're all heartbroken. We know she was old but her death was so sudden. Old age and arthritis had slowed her down but she still had her playful puppy moments up until the day before we took her to the vet. We expected to have a few more months to love and enjoy her company before having to say goodbye. I feel like I failed her for not being more informed. All these years she's received annual vaccinations that were unnecessary and the last set killed her. The only consolation is that she didn't suffer long.
Fuzzy pants I'm so sorry for your loss. Apart from finding a new vet like Kris said, I would tell him that he was wrong in giving the vaccine to your dog. It was not necessary. He or she needs to be told of there mistake and what it cost you. Again sorry for your loss.
 

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Oh how I wish I had seen this sooner!!! We adopted our dog about a month ago. He is the perfect dog for us!! He is house trained, quiet (hardly barks at all and only outside), knows basic commands and is learning others quickly. My children love him so much!! Last Tuesday, I took him in to the vet for a grooming and general check-up since he is new to us. They said he needed a rabies shot for them to do the grooming. I thought that seemed reasonable so I said okay. They didn't tell me *anything* about possible side-effects. And now I'm 99% sure he is having adverse reactions. He has become very lethargic, his muscles twitch constantly, he hasn't eaten or drank anything in 2 days and this morning he peed in my house. THAT is not normal. The only other time he did that was less than a week ago (also after the vaccination).
I am so angry that I wasn't told about the possible side-effects!!!!!!! And after having some time to think about it, I shouldn't have gotten the vaccine at all because of his history. We don't know anything about it!! He was found as a stray in March. No one came looking for him so the shelter adopted him out. We have no idea where he came from, when his last vaccination was, or what vaccines he's had. And he's an indoor dog with no contact with at-risk animals.
Do these symptoms go away?

Jane
 

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Regarding the distemper vaccine before 6 weeks, the initial poster said: "At this age, maternal antibodies form the mothers milk (colostrum) will neutralize the vaccine and only 30% for puppies will be protected. 100% will be exposed to the virus at the vet clinic."


This disturbs me. We have a a nearly 5 month old puppy who recieved his intitial shot from the breeder at 5 weeks. We were not informed he needed booster shots (this is our first dog ever) and we just took him to the vet for the first time at 16 weeks, where he got a booster.

Does this mean he was not immune from anything from the time we got him (8 weeks) until his trip to the vet at 16 weeks? What are the chances he has distemper or something else? Thanks.
 

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He may have had some immunity (all animals have working immune systems unless there is something wrong) but not the same as he would have had if the breeder had waited a couple weeks to do the shots and you had followed up at 10-12 weeks. Frankly ANY time you get a dog it should be examined by a vet within 72 hours after bringing it home, this protects you, the pup and the pewrson you got it from whether it's the shelter, a resscue or the breeder (in fact most breeders have it in their contract that you MUST have the pup examined or it will void the health gaurantee).

As far as exposure, you'd know if he had distemper or parvo within 14 days.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Weasley, if I were you, I would have my puppy titered in 3 weeks to see if there is an antibody count for the 3 core vaccines: distemper, hepatitis, and parvo (there should be). Then, if there is a titer count, I personally would never vaccinate my dog against those diseases again -- those vaccines are modified live virus vaccines (MLV's) just as the MLV polio vaccine for humans is, and they confer very long, if not lifetime durations of immunity.

According to a study published in the January 2010 issue of Journal of Comparative Pathology entitled, Age and Long-term Protective Immunity in Dogs and Cats by Dr. Ronald Schultz, et als., "Old dogs and cats rarely die from vaccine-preventable infectious disease, especially when they have been vaccinated and immunized as young adults (i.e. between 16 weeks and 1 year of age). However, young animals do die, often because vaccines were either not given or not given at an appropriate age (e.g. too early in life in the presence of maternally derived antibody [MDA]). ....The present study examines the DOI for core viral vaccines in dogs that had not been revaccinated for as long as 9 years. These animals had serum antibody to canine distemper virus (CDV), canine parvovirus type 2 (CPV-2) and canine adenovirus type-1 (CAV-1) at levels considered protective and when challenged with these viruses, the dogs resisted infection and/or disease. Thus, even a single dose of modified live virus (MLV) canine core vaccines (against CDV, cav-2 and cpv-2) or MLV feline core vaccines (against feline parvovirus [FPV], feline calicivirus [FCV] and feline herpesvirus [FHV]), when administered at 16 weeks or older, could provide long-term immunity in a very high percentage of animals, while also increasing herd immunity." http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WHW-4XVBB71-1&_user=10&_coverDate=01/31/2010&_rdoc=17&_fmt=high&_orig=browse&_srch=doc-info(#toc#6861#2010#998579999.8998#1578454#FLA#display#Volume)&_cdi=6861&_sort=d&_docanchor=&_ct=24&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=fb57fe5e84a086c6b1fa65abea55dbd8
 

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Ahh, thank you - great post. I'm so glad to see this community sticks behind logic like this instead of very anti or very by-the-vet vaccination opinions. I am for vaccinating your animals - but agree that (at least in the U.S. where I live) vaccinations are given too often *unnecessarily* and can cause harm due to over-vaccinating.

On the flip side, I seem to run into a lot of people who proudly exclaim things like, "I don't vaccinate my animals!" and think we should all praise them for it and follow suit. Sorry, but I think that's irresponsible. I've heard of too many puppies dying due to parvo, distemper, etc. But forget trying to explain this to them. You get back nasty comments like, "Well if my dog gets sick, it's other people's fault for keeping these diseases in the eco-system."

Hmm.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Whatever vaccinal choices pet owners make for their animals, I think the most important thing is that they make an informed choice.
 

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Wow - information overload.

So basically from what I can figure most vets vaccinate dogs annualy when there is no need for it and when possible dangers can occur?

I'm going into the vets in 2 days time for Jukes's and Bella's annual vaccinations - this will be Jukes's first set - he's a year old but Bella is about 9 years old.

So what are the vaccinations that they should get - I'm really confused and I would like to know before we go to the vet - should Bella have any at all? She was handed into a shelter without any certificates - then I got her and the shelter said she'd need her annual shots again in August but now I'm wondering whether she should. She's an indoor dog but obviously comes into contact with Jukes and other dogs on walks etc

Jukes had Distemper,Parvo,Hepatitis, Rabies - which I think are okay - but he also had Bordetella - which I'm not sure about.

Sorry for the long post - basic question - what vaccines do they need?
Thankyou
 

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So what are the vaccinations that they should get - I'm really confused and I would like to know before we go to the vet - should Bella have any at all?
Lucy, here is Dr. W. Jean Dodds' Latest Recommendation Vaccination Schedule for those of you who are interested.

http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html

Dr. Jean Dodds' Recommended Vaccination Schedule

Distemper (MLV)
Initial (e.g. Intervet Progard Puppy) 9 weeks, 12 weeks, 16 - 20 weeks
1st Annual Booster At 1 year MLV Distemper/ Parvovirus only
Re-Administration Interval None needed.
Duration of immunity 7.5 / 15 years by studies. Probably lifetime. Longer studies pending.
Comments Can have numerous side effects if given too young (< 8 weeks).

Parvovirus (MLV)
Initial (e.g. Intervet Progard Puppy) 9 weeks, 12 weeks, 16 - 20 weeks
1st Annual BoosterAt 1 year MLV Distemper/ Parvovirus only
Re-Administration Interval None needed.
Duration of immunity 7.5 years by studies. Probably lifetime. Longer studies pending.
Comments At 6 weeks of age, only 30% of puppies are protected but 100% are exposed to the virus at the vet clinic.

Rabies (killed)
Initial 24 weeks or older
1st Annual BoosterAt 1 year (give 3-4 weeks apart from Dist/Parvo booster) Killed 3 year rabies vaccine
Re-Administration Interval 3 yr. vaccine given as required by law in California (follow your state/provincial requirements)
Comments rabid animals may infect dogs.

Vaccines Not Recommended For Dogs

Distemper & Parvo @ 6 weeks or younger
Not recommended.
At this age, maternal antibodies form the mothers milk (colostrum) will neutralize the vaccine and only 30% for puppies will be protected. 100% will be exposed to the virus at the vet clinic.

Corona
Not recommended.
1.) Disease only affects dogs <6 weeks of age.
2.) Rare disease: TAMU has seen only one case in seven years.
3.) Mild self-limiting disease.
4.) Efficacy of the vaccine is questionable.

Leptospirosis
Not recommended
1) There are an average of 12 cases reported annually in California.
2) Side effects common.
3) Most commonly used vaccine contains the wrong serovars. (There is no cross-protection of serovars) There is a new vaccine with 2 new serovars. Two vaccinations twice per year would be required for protection.).
4) Risk outweighs benefits.

Lyme
Not recommended
1) Low risk in California.
2) 85% of cases are in 9 New England states and Wisconsin.
3) Possible side effect of polyarthritis from whole cell bacterin.

Boretella
(Intranasal)
(killed) Only recommended 3 days prior to boarding when required.
Protects against 2 of the possible 8 causes of kennel cough.
Duration of immunity 6 months.

Giardia
Not recommended
Efficacy of vaccine unsubstantiated by independent studies

There are two types of vaccines currently available to veterinarians: modified-live vaccines and inactivated ("killed") vaccines.

Immunization Schedules

There is a great deal of controversy and confusion surrounding the appropriate immunization schedule, especially with the availability of modified-live vaccines and breeders who have experienced postvaccinal problems when using some of these vaccines. It is also important to not begin a vaccination program while maternal antibodies are still active and present in the puppy from the mother's colostrum. The maternal antibodies identify the vaccines as infectious organisms and destroy them before they can stimulate an immune response.

Many breeders and owners have sought a safer immunization program.

Modified Live Vaccines (MLV)

Modified-live vaccines contain a weakened strain of the disease causing agent. Weakening of the agent is typically accomplished by chemical means or by genetic engineering. These vaccines replicate within the host, thus increasing the amount of material available for provoking an immune response without inducing clinical illness. This provocation primes the immune system to mount a vigorous response if the disease causing agent is ever introduced to the animal. Further, the immunity provided by a modified-live vaccine develops rather swiftly and since they mimic infection with the actual disease agent, it provides the best immune response.

Inactivated Vaccines (Killed)

Inactivated vaccines contain killed disease causing agents. Since the agent is killed, it is much more stable and has a longer shelf life, there is no possibility that they will revert to a virulent form, and they never spread from the vaccinated host to other animals. They are also safe for use in pregnant animals (a developing fetus may be susceptible to damage by some of the disease agents, even though attenuated, present in modified-live vaccines). Although more than a single dose of vaccine is always required and the duration of immunity is generally shorter, inactivated vaccines are regaining importance in this age of retrovirus and herpesvirus infections and concern about the safety of genetically modified microorganisms. Inactivated vaccines available for use in dogs include rabies, canine parvovirus, canine coronavirus, etc.

W. Jean Dodds, DVM
HEMOPET
938 Stanford Street
Santa Monica, CA 90403
310/ 828-4804
fax: 310/ 828-8251

Note: This schedule is the one I recommend and should not be interpreted to mean that other protocols recommended by a veterinarian would be less satisfactory. It's a matter of professional judgment and choice. For breeds or families of dogs susceptible to or affected with immune dysfunction, immune-mediated disease, immune-reactions associated with vaccinations, or autoimmune endocrine disease (e.g., thyroiditis, Addison's or Cushing's disease, diabetes, etc.) the above protocol is recommended.

After 1 year, annually measure serum antibody titers against specific canine infectious agents such as distemper and parvovirus. This is especially recommended for animals previously experiencing adverse vaccine reactions or breeds at higher risk for such reactions (e.g., Weimaraner, Akita, American Eskimo, Great Dane).

Another alternative to booster vaccinations is homeopathic nosodes. This option is considered an unconventional treatment that has not been scientifically proven to be efficacious. One controlled parvovirus nosode study did not adequately protect puppies under challenged conditions. However, data from Europe and clinical experience in North America support its use. If veterinarians choose to use homeopathic nosodes, their clients should be provided with an appropriate disclaimer and written informed consent should be obtained.

I use only killed 3 year rabies vaccine for adults and give it separated from other vaccines by 3-4 weeks. In some states, they may be able to give titer test result in lieu of booster.

I do NOT use Bordetella, corona virus, leptospirosis or Lyme vaccines unless these diseases are endemic in the local area pr specific kennel. Furthermore, the currently licensed leptospira bacterins do not contain the serovars causing the majority of clinical leptospirosis today.

I do NOT recommend vaccinating bitches during estrus, pregnancy or lactation.

W. Jean Dodds, DVM
HEMOPET
_____________________________________________________________________________

Below are links to excellent information on veterinary vaccines from authoritative sources:

Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm

What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines, Dr. Ronald Schultz
http://www.puliclub.org/CHF/AKC2007Conf/What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines.htm

Age and Long-term Protective Immunity in Dogs and Cats, Dr. Ronald Schultz et als., Journal of Comparative Pathology January 2010 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WHW-4XVBB71-1&_user=10&_coverDate=01/31/2010&_rdoc=17&_fmt=high&_orig=browse&_srch=doc-info(#toc#6861#2010#998579999.8998#1578454#FLA#display#Volume)&_cdi=6861&_sort=d&_docanchor=&_ct=24&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=fb57fe5e84a086c6b1fa65abea55dbd8

Genetically Engineered and Modified Live Virus Vaccines;Public Health and Animal Welfare Concerns by Michael W. Fox BVetMed,PhD,DSc.MRCVS
http://www.twobitdog.com/drfox/specialreport_Article.aspx?ID=273f53f4-bcdc-474f-a189-cca1d1a81c38

Vaccination: An Overview Dr. Melissa Kennedy, DVM360 http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avhc/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=568351

World Small Animal Veterinay Association's 2010 Guidelines for the Vaccination of Dogs and Cats http://www.wsava.org/VGG1.htm (scroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2010 http://www.wsava.org/PDF/Misc/VaccinationGuidelines2010.pdf

World Small Animal Veterinary Association 2007 Vaccine Guidelines http://www.wsava.org/SAC.htm Scroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2007 (PDF)

The 2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are accessible online at http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm .

The 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are downloadable in PDF format at
http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/VaccineGuidelines06Revised.pdf

Veterinarian, Dr. Robert Rogers,has an excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines at http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/

October 1, 2002 DVM Newsletter article entitled, AVMA, AAHA to Release Vaccine Positions, http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=35171

July 1, 2003 DVM Newsletter article entitled, What Do We Tell Our Clients?, Developing thorough plan to educate staff on changing vaccine protocols essential for maintaining solid relationships with clients and ensuring quality care http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=61696

July 1, 2003, DVM Newsletter article, Developing Common Sense Strategies for Fiscal Responsibility: Using an interactive template to plan service protocol changes http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=61694

Animal Wellness Magazine Article Vol. 8 Issue 6, How Often Does he REALLY Need A Rabies Shot Animal Wellness Magazine - devoted to natural health in animals

The Rabies Challenge Animal Wise Radio Interview
Listen to Animal Wise (scroll down to The Rabies Challenge 12/9/07)

The Vaccine Challenge Animal Talk Naturally Online Radio Show » The Vaccine Challenge - Show #91

Rabies Prevention -- United States, 1991 Recommendations of the Immunization Practices Advisory Committee (ACIP), Center for Disease Control's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly March 22, 1991 / 40(RR03);1-19 http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00041987.htm "A fully vaccinated dog or cat is unlikely to become infected with rabies, although rare cases have been reported (48). In a nationwide study of rabies among dogs and cats in 1988, only one dog and two cats that were vaccinated contracted rabies (49). All three of these animals had received only single doses of vaccine; no documented vaccine failures occurred among dogs or cats that had received two vaccinations. "
 

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Pinballdoctor, if you read carefully I think you'll notice that nothing you have posted says that vaccines are useless, in fact the main argument seems to be that they're far MORE effective than previously believed. Yes, there are side effects caused by vaccines, but there are side effects to getting Parvo, too. Yes, vaccines should not be given annually. Even the AVMA says so.

And yes, vets frequently overuse and misrepresent vaccines, and something should be done about that. But vaccines are useful, and without them we'd be in big trouble. Check out the rabies rates in China, Southeast Asia, and Eastern Europe. I would prefer not to live in fear that my dog will die from rabies, and kill me in the meantime.
 

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Well, pinball. All of this is quite old stuff, and I imagine most of us have seen it before. O'Driscoll's science seems rather questionable (having read some of her stuff and asked her questions that just made her angry instead of getting answered) and Dr. Bob Rogers from Texas, weeellllll. Just because there's a DVM behind your name doesn't guarantee that you're not a crackpot (though I have to agree that Corona is a vaccination looking for a disease.) Somewhere between vaccinating your dog yearly for every possible disease and thinking that all vets are Satan out to kill your dog for money and jollies, there IS a middle ground which recognizes that sometimes vaccines are a lesser danger than the disease they vaccinate against, sometimes they are not, and that nothing in life is totally without risk or guarantees that your dog will live forever. Still, while you're digging out all the old anti-vaccination propaganda, I haven't yet seen you provide a single incidence where a dog (or cat) contracted rabies from a vaccination. That is the claim you made and the proof/information for which several people have asked.
 
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