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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I thought it would be interesting to start a thread about the origins of all Bull terrier breeds so people can learn and share information on the American pit bull terrier,Staffordshire bull terrier,American Staffordshire terrier and English Bull terriers.

Its to give an insight into thier relation to each other,thier breed standards and anything else from thier history that people can share as there are many myths (not just the killer ones.lol) surrounding them and also for those interested to learn about them.

I'll kick off by posting the Staffordshire bull terrier and the English bull terrier (i dont want to post APBT pics as they are more often than not AST and vice versa so i'll leave that to the Americans to do)

Here are some photos/info on Staffordshire Bull terriers.

The Staffordshire Bull terrier (SBT)



A good link to some older photos and history about the Staffordshire bull terrier
http://www.staffordmall.com/mallstandard.htm

Some history on the breed......
The Staffordshire Bull Terrier first came into existence in or around the seventeenth century. As bull baiting declined in popularity and dog fighting enjoyed a surge of interest, it became necessary to develop a dog which possessed a longer and more punishing head than the Bulldog and also to combine strength and agility. It is therefore believed that the Staffordshire Bull Terrier was derived from the fighting Bulldog of the day with some terrier blood introduced. This cross produced what was known as the Bull and Terrier or Pit Dog. These dogs were renowned for their courage and tenacity and despite their ferocity in the pit were excellent companions and good with children. In fact it was not unknown for an injured dog to be transported home in a pram with the baby! Although dog fighting and other barbaric pastimes of the day were patronised by the aristocracy - Lord Camelford reportedly owned a famous dog called 'Belcher'- fighting dogs were also owned by the poorest of families. The pit dog was a favourite with miners and steelworkers and was prevalent amongst the chainmakers of the " Black Country " where the dogs were not only fought for entertainment but provided a working man with valuable extra income when worked against badgers or as ratters. With the introduction of the Humane Act in 1835, baiting sports and dog fighting became unlawful and a group of men in the Staffordshire area endeavoured to preserve their breed by introducing them to the show world. After much discussion the Standard was written describing the dog's physical attributes and this dog was named the Staffordshire Bull Terrier to differentiate him from the English Bull Terrier. The Staffordshire Bull Terrier was officially registered by the Kennel Club in 1935 and the first club show for the breed took place in August 1935 at Cradley Heath in the West Midlands where 60 dogs and bitches were entered . The founder club was named The Staffordshire Bull Terrier Club and is affectionately known as 'The Parent Club'. There are now a total of 18 clubs in Great Britain and Northern Ireland ranging from the North of Scotland to the West of England. The breed received championship status in 1938 when CC's were awarded for the first time at the Birmingham National. The first two Champions of the breed were Ch. Gentleman Jim and Ch. Lady Eve. The popularity of the breed has now spread abroad with well established clubs in many countries including Australia, Eire, France, Germany, Holland, Spain and the USA, to name but a few. Over the years the Staffordshire Bull Terrier has become a successful show dog and a serious contender in the Terrier Group, where they frequently have the highest number of entries of all dogs in the Terrier Group and are occasional winners of Best in Show. More importantly the Stafford has become a popular pet retaining the attributes gained from generations of fighting dogs bred for courage, tenacity and most important: total reliability and affinity with people and in particular children

The English Bull terrier (EBT)



Some history on the breed......
Bull-baiting and dog fighting were long considered great entertainment by many Europeans, and patrons were constantly trying crosses to achieve the ultimate fighting dog. Around 1835, a cross between a bulldog and the old English terrier produced a particularly adept pit dog known as the "bull and terrier." A later cross to the Spanish pointer added needed size, and the result was a tenacious, strong, yet agile dog that came to dominate the pits. As interest in the exhibition of dogs grew in England, little attention was paid to these dogs so long associated with the lower echelons of society. With the abolition of dog fighting, however, some bull terrier patrons turned to this new venue to compete with their dogs, and they began to breed for appearance. Around 1860 James Hinks crossed the bull and terrier with the White English terrier and the Dalmatian, producing an all-white strain he called bull terriers. The new all-white strain immediately succeeded in the ring and captured the attention of the public; they became a fashionable companion for young gentlemen who wanted a good-looking masculine dog at their sides. The dogs gained the reputation for defending themselves, but not provoking a fight, and were thus dubbed "the white cavalier." The dogs gradually became more streamlined, and the bull terrier's distinctive head evolved. Around 1900, crosses with Staffordshire bull terriers reintroduced color into the breed. He was not well-accepted at first, but he finally gained equal status as a separate AKC variety in 1936. The white variety still continues as the more popular variety, but both colors have enjoyed great popularity as show dogs and pets. Their comical nature and expression wins them many friends, and they have proven to be very successful in movies and advertising.

Feel free to add/dispute any info and hopefully this thread will be a great insight and learning point for all interested in the breeds,i myself am always looking to learn more on the history and origins of all bull terrier breeds.
(American APBT owners get posting your info and photos)
 

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I have mostly pics now with a little info. I will try to post specific info later.

The Bull & Terriers

There is much speculation about these breeds and a few theories on certain breeds within this group. One thing is clear that similarity in all can't be denied. Some still have a wider range of variety today while others have a standardized look most often seen.

The history of the bull & terrier breeds are greatly intertwined, from the same origins, same roots being bred in different directions. To being crossed back and forth between breeds at one time or another. Prior to the AKC accepting the APBT for register these pit dogs were registered as Bull Terrier alongside the English Bull Terrier/bench dogs.

These breeds are believed to come from bulldog and terrier crosses. Bulldogs were dogs which baited bulls and butchers dogs who held bulls.
Bulldogs






 

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Terriers were dogs used to hunt vermin, control pest (keep them out of farmers grains). Ratting competitions also tested the best of a terriers (or bull and terriers) ratting ability.
These are possible terriers thought to have been bred with the bulldogs to create the bull & terriers

English White Terrier and Black & Tan Terrier

The Blue Paul Terrier (need to search my pc for illustrations) was another breed thought to have been crossed with some bulldogs and in the ancestry of some APBTs.

English White Terrier




Some historic photos
American Pit Bull Terrier
 

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APBT (cont)

CH Pilot


GR CH Richmond 8xw

King Paddy (won over EBT in show ring) Son of Delihant's Paddy 5xw whom he looks very much like and grandson of GR CH Richmond (his dams sire) pictured above. Has CH Pilot in the 5th pictured above


 

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Discussion Starter #5
Great pictures Spicy,i look forward to your input on this thread (the 1st picture looks a bit like those *old boston terriers* i asked you about.)

Are these drawings American?
 

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Staffordshire Bull Terrier (cont)


American Staffordshire Terrier

Colby's Primo an APBT (ADBA/UKC registered) was one of the initial dogs registered with the AKC and used as the ideal for the standard



SBT/EBT CH Stormer
 

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Gentleman Jim as referenced By "Mr Pooch"

Great pictures Spicy,i look forward to your input on this thread (the 1st picture looks a bit like those *old boston terriers* i asked you about.)

Are these drawings American?
The 1st bulldog photo? Yeah I think they look similar also.

I'm not sure if they are American. I think they might be European illustrations. No clue though.

Im working on some APBT specific info... spicy when I post it you will add anything I miss?
Yeah I can if there is anything to add.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Dont forget the AST Zim,im not too clued up on that breed.

Spicy,yeah the 1st photo,looks alot like them!
Brilliant photos,those SBT/EBT and APBT/EBT are formidable looking dogs!
 

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Dont forget the AST Zim,im not too clued up on that breed.

Spicy,yeah the 1st photo,looks alot like them!
Brilliant photos,those SBT/EBT and APBT/EBT are formidable looking dogs!
The AST is an AKC registered APBT so they have the same origin.

In 1935 the AKC after some trying accepted the APBT under the name Staffordshire Terrier and began registering them in 1936. In 1972 the name was changed to American Staffordshire Terrier. The AKC dogs came from the already existing APBTs who were dual registered for the foundation stock. The stud books were opened twice more to allow APBTs to be added to the stud book.

There are many well known APBTs that can be seen behind the AST pedigrees. Some are Colby's Primo, GR CH Tudor's Black Jack (The sire of "Petey" who was also dual registered as with AKC), GR CH Tudor's Black Jack Jr

What do you think of this one, I think you've seen him before.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Its crazy how basically all of the bull terriers seem to have the same history story!

So the EBT was the 1st created Bull terrier,or is that wrong?? it does bare the most resemblence to the english white terrier,i also didnt know (untill i looked it up) that the colour brought into the EBT was from breeding SBT into them.

I could read and talk this subject forever.

ETA:Gr champion Richmond look a bit like an EBT.
 

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I think the bull & terrier crosses were first ;) Then people standardized them into different breeds. They bred them for their ideal or put a label on them. Some became known as EBT, others SBT and others APBT and so on. I don't think specifically the EBT as a breed was the first. Some of the others were also referred to as Bull Terriers too.

EBT possibly had the most or more English White Terrier to begin with. The other pit dogs probably had other terriers breeds and more various bulldogs. As the EBT was standardized quick. Even without an actual standard it appears that there was more breeding them together (within their own developing breed) after the initial crossing to achieve what they wanted with them.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
I think the bull & terrier crosses were first ;)
Haha! even i knew that Spice:D,i should have said "was it the 1st labelled bull terrier"

Thanks for all the info,keep it coming.:cool:

Ness,he is a beauty isnt he!

Whos this pooch Spicy?,i do recall seeing this dog before,he has the bandogge look going on,great looking dog.

Some info on the Irish variation of SBT.....
http://www.molossermania.com/brd/b/b010/b010e/history.html

http://www.keetchs-irish-staffords.com/PUPPYS_FOR_SALE/What_is_an_Irish_Dog/what_is_an_irish_dog.html
 

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Yeah Ness that dog is interesting, hardly ever see a red nose SBT over here.

Mr Pooch Hehe I knew what you meant....just messing with ya
I don't think so, as in I don't think the EBT came first then the other came from the EBT. I think it was almost parallel in creation. Just breeders with different goals and such. It would be like if the Bullmastiff had results in a few different breeds with similar temperament and different physical build. Humans are great at manipulating phenotype.

That is CH Clouse's Big Boy

His dam Clouse's Fanny


Her grandsire Corvino's Shorty


Her other grandsire Corvino's Gimp


I have dogs down from Clouse breeding
Do you remember this bitch I sent photo of in PM?
 

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Sorry for asking damn question:

What’s the best way to tell the difference between APBT and AM staff? Especially on some pictures? I know SBTs are smaller than those guys but if it was just on some pictures, it’s really hard to tell between them.

-n
 

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Well...where to begin?

Lets start with Pit Fighting itself

CAJUN RULES
This is a set of rules that was set out by G. A.(Gaboon) Trahan. Called Cajun rules. I know of one more set of rules called the same thing or very little different. But there is enough that if you ever match under these rules, make sure you and the other handler get with the referee before the match and get everything clear. I will point out the rules that I try to get clear at the end of these rules. Word for word by Gaboon Trahan in black ink. My understanding as I was taught in Old English. One rule in green ink that I amended because two cur dogs can’t produce a draw. Neither dog can produce a contest, what a shame!
Rule 1
Size of pit, optional; to be square with sides 2 feet high, scratch line 14 feet apart.
Optional meaning larger than 16 foot square, not smaller because you wouldn’t have enough room for dogs and Handlers.
Rule 2
Referee to be chosen before the dogs are weighed in or washed and referee to conduct the contest according to these Rules and his decision is final.
Simple understanding of that rule as long as referee can and does line out, direct in sequence the procedures so as to control the contest.
Rule 3
Referee to see the dogs weighed at time agreed on and if either dog is over top weight agreed on he loses the forfeit money.
Forfeit taker has the option to not fight or renegotiate the wager because of the forfeit [example: $750 to 1,000] contest negotiations to continue as if there was no infraction or foul.
Rule 4
Parties to toss coin to see who shall wash first, each party to furnish two clean towels and a blanket.
Simple understanding. The referee should indicate to the winner of the toss to weigh his dog first. Then the loser of the toss to weigh his dog next, then to the wash tub then to the pit. (two towels, baking soda, milk and soap have been provided for each opponent for the last 30 years)
Rule 5
If requested to do so the referee shall search the person named to wash the dog and then have him bare his arm to the elbow and wash both dogs in the same warm water and rinse them each in his half of the warm clean water provided for that purpose.
Simple understanding, “if requested”. I personally wash my hands, bare my arms, if my opponent doesn’t or says I don’t have to wash my dog?? I will wash him myself.
Rule 6
As the dogs are washed clean and dried they shall be turned over to their handlers and at once taken to their corners of the pit as designated by the referee and the referee must search handlers for means of foul play and see that he bares his arms to the elbow before he receives his dog and must keep his arms bare in such a manner during the contest.
When I referee I allow the first dog to the contest to choose his corner. The rest of the rule stands as written.
Rule 7
The dog’s owner or his representative shall be allowed at all times to be near his dog and watch to see that no harm is done him, and each owner shall be allowed to name a man or himself watch his opponent’s dog and handler at all times to see he is given no unfair advantage.
Understandable.
Rule 8
Either dog’s owner, handler or watcher if he sees anything wrong must at once appeal to the referee and get his decision. And if any handler, watcher or owner violates any of these rules and thereby favors either dog the dog so favored must at once be declared the loser.
Understandable.
Rule 9
The interested parties shall choose a timekeeper at the pit side.
Understandable.
MORE COMING...
 

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Rule 10
The dogs are placed in their corners of the pit, opposite corners, faces turned from each other and only the dog and their handlers inside the pit. Then the referee shall say, (Face your dogs) Each handler must always show his dog full head and shoulders between his legs. The referee says (Let’s go), but the handler must never push or shove their dogs and handlers shall not leave their corners until the dogs are together.
Understanding that both front feet on the scratch line to support his own weight.
RULE 11
No when one of the dogs turns his head and shoulders away from his opponent after the fight is on it is a turn, whether they are in holds or free, and the handler must claim the turn and the referee must allow the claim if he believes it is a turn or the referee must call the first fair turn he sees whether the handler claims it or not and when the referee calls a turn he shall say (Handle your dogs) and each handler must pick up his dog as soon as he can without breaking a hold. Handlers carry their dogs to their respective corners immediately on picking them up, keeping the dogs face turned away from the center of the pit. Twenty-five seconds after the dogs are carried to their corners the referee shall say (Face your dogs) Then the handlers must show their dogs head and shoulders between their legs, facing the center of the pit. The dog that turns first must scratch first. In five seconds more the referee shall say (Let’s go, then the dog that made the first tun must be turned loose by his handler and this dog must go across and mouth the other dog. If, when he is turned loose he refuses to start at once or if he stops on the way over, or if he fails to reach his opponent, he has lost the fight and the referee must declare his opponent the winner.
A handler is allowed to release his dog at any time he sees fit after the dog whose turn it is to cross has started over. He must turn him loose when the dogs touch each other.
I have found myself between two loaded guns because I didn’t specifically say “Handle your Dog when they are free of hold”. Also when people call a turn on his opponents dog that has been pushed into a turn or sling out of hold into a turn. The referee should never allow such a thing. If the referee didn’t see the turn even if both handlers agree it was a turn. The referee should not allow it. After a turn called and allowed by the referee, either handler can not handle their dog from the bottom, that is a foul. Because it is a foul to not handle the top dog. When they are free of hold. Because either dog has the right to quit, that’s what the rules are for.
The five seconds more is for the referee to make sure both dogs are ready to start not looking at some stupid unsportsman like people screaming, whistling, beating on the pitwalls to secure their bets. I said “gentlemen” so don’t make noise or bet any money because good dog people don’t want to hear it. We brought our dog to a contest not a dog fight! Spectators cannot interfere with the contest.
The dog must mouth the other dog because it is a dog fight not a ballet. A smart handler will not turn his dog loose if the dog smells, licks or humps his dog until the count is over. There is no reason for someone to ask before the contest about touch or bite because everyone assumes you brought a game dog not a curfew all do the best we can and can only expect the same from both dogs.
If a dog is taking the count and has not crossed the scratch line and is scratched upon, that handler fouled the dog taking the count. The referee should declare the dog that was taking the count the winner. Why?? Because a dog has the right to quit! That’s why we have a referee, because we have too many people that aren’t gentlemen and sports, and don’t understand what they are doing. No rule will prolong the contest unnecessarily. Unawareness, and stupidity can not prolong the contest either.
RULE 12
If neither dog has made a turn and they cease to fight after 60 seconds of no action the down dog is to scratch first, if he makes his scratch the fight is on and they shall scratch in turns until the contest is decided.
(b) If the down dog fails to scratch the other dog is to scratch to win. If he fails to scratch the contest shall be declared a draw by the referee.
(c) No handler is to handle his dog until ordered by the referee if he does, it shall be called a foul and he is to forfeit to his opponent.
(d) No flash pictures or hitting on pit side shall be allowed unless agreed upon by the two contestants.
I need to amend line (b) and when I referee I tell both parties involved that I won’t be a party to two curr dogs that won’t scratch to win. I don’t think either dog should be recognized as a bull dog in a contest that didn’t turn out as a contest. So at best, I call it no contest. If one dog tries and doesn’t make it. It’s a draw.(C)and (D) speak for themselves.
RULE 13
After the dogs are together this time either handler is allowed to pick up his dog when they are not in holds, or ordered by referee. If he tries for a pick up and either dog has a hold he must turn him loose at once. If he catches his dog up free both handlers must handle their dogs at once.
Take their dogs to their corners and proceed same as at the first turn, except this time the dog which went across before is allowed to remain in his corner while his opponent makes a scratch, or goes across, and they alternate or take it’s turn about in this manner until one of them is declared the winner under these rules. The referee pays no attention to the turn after the first scratch.
Understandable
RULE 14
If one of the dogs fangs himself, that is, if he gets his teeth hung in his own lip, his handler is allowed to unfang him. If the dogs have to be separated for this they are turned loose again, both at the same time within two feet of each other in the center of the pit.
Understandable; every show should have a pair of forceps to unfang dogs in hold.
RULE 15
No sponging shall be allowed, and no towels or anything else taken into the pit by the handlers except a bottle of drink for his dog and a fan to cool him with. The handlers must taste their dog’s drink before the referee to show that it contains no poison.
For the past 30 years I have used one bucket and two large sponges. I also give the sponge to the scratching dog first in the rotation.
RULE 16
If the handler of either dog is seen to take anything from anyone on the outside of the pit he is to lose the battle. Each party shall have the right to put a man near his opponents corner to watch the handler. Should he see the handler put anything on his dog he may appeal to the referee and if the referee finds anything on the dog he is to lose the battle.
Understandable.
RULE 17
Should either handler leave the pit with his dog before the referee renders his decision he is to lose the battle.
Understandable.
RULE 18
The handlers shall be allowed to encourage their dogs by voice or hand-clapping or snapping of their fingers, but must not touch their dog or use foul, dirty methods by saving their dogs from hard fall or keeping the other handler away from his dog, or in any other way act unfairly. The referee must decide the battle against the one who does so.
Understandable.
RULE 19
Should the police interfere the referee to name the next meeting place.....
Understandable.
_______________________________________________________________
Now to point out a few things about these rules.
There has been question lately on how far out the scratch line should be from the corners. The pit should be big enough for the handler to have room to work with his dog and be able to turn around with out being over the scratch line. But the scratch line must always be 14 feet apart. Rule 11 states a dog must start at once or if he stops on the way over, he has lost. Everyone I know gives a dog the count of 20 to make his scratch, no matter how many times he stops on the way over or when he starts. It also says in rule 11 that a dog must mouth the other dog on his scratch. Then later it says a handler must turn his dog loose when dogs touch each other. You should always get it clear with the handler and the referee that a dog must bite, or touch to complete his scratch.
In rule 12 it states, the down dog to scratch after 60 seconds of no action, this is called and out of hold count. A handler should always have to ask the referee for an out of hold count. And be made clear before the match if it will be a one minute or a two minute count. And Always make it clear before the match that one dog must bite or lick, or touch the other dog with his mouth before the count can be broke.
Rule 14 a handler should always tell the referee when his dog is fang and never touch his dog until the referee tells him to do so.
Because your mind is free to condition your dog, the majority won’t ever read this, the majority will stay as they are with a false ranking and non-professional rating thinking they are above the majority. As you read on I may repeat myself many times because of the many articles I’ve written in the past. I want to help everyone develop an eye for conditioning at home. If you don’t see your dog recover at home, he won’t recover in the contest. You can bring an athlete to a contest, that won’t turn or falter, like my peers that rank as gentlemen and sportsmen. Proven professionalization, if they lose they start all over again with another dog. Most good dog men work a dog as they rest a winner.
by Robert Lemm
Source: http://www.gamedogs.com/pitrules.htm


MORE COMING

Ok I think the best way to do this is

look over these rules...

What qualities would a dog need to have to excell in this scenario?

I've got my take on it ready but I want to hear what others might say first..
 
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