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Ok, let me just start out by saying that this dog was given to me a day ago by a friend of mine & yes, she SHOULD have gotten the dog spayed, but she didn't. I immediately had her scheduled to be fixed the first of next month; that's when he was available to do it & that's when I get my SSI check.

My dog is 7 years old & is only 15 lbs. The dog she tied with was her brother, who is actually smaller than she is. Before I received the dog, she was confirmed by the vet to be out of heat (I actually went with my friend when she had the dog taken there, so I heard him say that it was safe for her to be around male dogs again & since my sister owns her brother, given to her by the same friend, I naturally took her.

Long story short, I'm taking her in Monday to the vet & I'm still going through with the spay; I don't want her to suffer through complications & possibly even death...I couldn't bare it.

There is a question in all this...my question is, if she was still in heat & her vet was indeed wrong (Which, by the looks of things...he was)...why did she violently fight him when they were tied? I've heard, and this is by people who have been breeding dogs professionally for 30+ years that there are three main days that a dog is at her most fertile & is receptive...Ebony actually attacked him & retreated away prior to them being joined & she violently attacked him after they were separated, which took about five minutes.

I know she could very well be pregnant, but I also know that the same male dog had actually tied with a fixed female because he smelled another female dog in heat nearby...in fact, he preferred her to an actual dog that was in heat. I've been told this is impossible, but it did in fact happen because they were both in that infamous butt to butt stance & he had knotted because she couldn't get away from him. The lady who owned her took her to the same vet & it was confirmed the dog was indeed fixed (Her uterus & ovaries had been removed).

My final question is in regards to a normal heat cycle, according to my friend, Ebony was in heat for her normal time, which was exactly 24 days. She waited an additional three weeks before allowing her around male dogs, which was a week before I actually was given her...during that time in between none of her male dogs or any male dog for that matter showed any sort of interest in mating with her, but when she arrived, her brother only became interested when I let her outside this morning, which is when it happened. Did she have a silent heat or a split heat & if she had a normal cycle as confirmed by a vet, is that normal? I mean, she wasn't bleeding or swollen at all.

I know most of you are going to say that I'm a horrible & evil person; trust me, I feel the same way about this happening. But please, if you're going to ridicule me, at least read the entire post before you do. she is most definitely getting fixed ASAP.
 

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What did the vet do to check?

Could have been a silent heat. He could have tied even if not in heat. Could have been miscalculated. Bleeding should have been over with anyway, but swelling should still be present, though some dogs its hard to notice.
 

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First of all. I don't believe in "its okay for her to be around males when not in heat". Because 1) as your witnessed, the female can get grumpy and attack. 2) the female could of been hurt by the male. 3) the female could undergo ALOT of stress from a male dog trying to mate with her.

You really should of taken the extra steps to keep them apart if you wanted to take her in.
 

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Meh, doesn't really matter if you're going to go ahead with the spay in less than 2 weeks. No biggie. Just make sure the vet knows so he can watch for extra bleeding. But, yes, some dogs will tie with spayed females or unspayed females who aren't in heat. Sometimes even if they're neutered! Which he probably should be if he's such a sex-crazed maniac :p.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
First of all. I don't believe in "its okay for her to be around males when not in heat". Because 1) as your witnessed, the female can get grumpy and attack. 2) the female could of been hurt by the male. 3) the female could undergo ALOT of stress from a male dog trying to mate with her.

You really should of taken the extra steps to keep them apart if you wanted to take her in.
Yes, I do agree with you. But you've got to understand, when I'm constantly being told it was ok by professionals...then I naturally believed them. And she never showed any kind of agression towards him until now. My friend, when she originally owned him & her never had a problem with either of them being grumpy towards one another. I have done my research & have several books on the subject. Most signs pointed to the fact that she was stressed about being in a new home...she is a very flightly & nervous dog & seemed to be even more distressed when I tried separating them, that is why I kept them together. And again, I do agree with you in regards to my naivety of trusting a vet's word. However, don't judge when you don't know the whole story. This is MY FIRST DOG & so I am not an expert. I am trying my best.
 

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He did the blood tests associated with checking the stages (Don't remember what they are called) because my friend wanted to be absolutely sure she was out of heat before giving her to me. It's true, it could very well have been miscalculated. She had no swelling whatsoever & she was not bleeding at all. Heck, her brother seemed to be the only male dog that actually tried anything with her & I was unaware of that up until this morning. It could have been a silent heat, but is that normal for a dog that had a perfectly normal cycle before?
 

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First of all. I don't believe in "its okay for her to be around males when not in heat". Because 1) as your witnessed, the female can get grumpy and attack. 2) the female could of been hurt by the male. 3) the female could undergo ALOT of stress from a male dog trying to mate with her.

You really should of taken the extra steps to keep them apart if you wanted to take her in.
What? Are you saying that you should never let male and female dogs be around each other?

Yeah it won't matter much if she's going to be spayed anyways. Just let the vet know. We did a spay last year on a stray bitch we had found that was pregnant and had heartworms. She was fairly far along and the spay went just fine!
 

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First of all. I don't believe in "its okay for her to be around males when not in heat". Because 1) as your witnessed, the female can get grumpy and attack. 2) the female could of been hurt by the male. 3) the female could undergo ALOT of stress from a male dog trying to mate with her.

You really should of taken the extra steps to keep them apart if you wanted to take her in.
This has to be one of the wildest things I have ever read on this forum.

Are you actually saying that it is a bad idea for an intact male and an intact female to be around each other even when not in heat?

Merlin and the Hell Bitch will be heart broken. In fact Most of Merlin's best play buddies are bitches. All intact. Merlin is going to be down to very few dog friends when I break the news to him.

I really wish I had known this information about 35-40 years ago.... To think I have been doing it wrong all this time.
 

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He did the blood tests associated with checking the stages (Don't remember what they are called) because my friend wanted to be absolutely sure she was out of heat before giving her to me. It's true, it could very well have been miscalculated. She had no swelling whatsoever & she was not bleeding at all. Heck, her brother seemed to be the only male dog that actually tried anything with her & I was unaware of that up until this morning. It could have been a silent heat, but is that normal for a dog that had a perfectly normal cycle before?
Progesterone testing is what your friend should have done.
 

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Meh, doesn't really matter if you're going to go ahead with the spay in less than 2 weeks. No biggie. Just make sure the vet knows so he can watch for extra bleeding. But, yes, some dogs will tie with spayed females or unspayed females who aren't in heat. Sometimes even if they're neutered! Which he probably should be if he's such a sex-crazed maniac :p.
Thanks! I'm going to call him and let him know first thing on Monday about the situation with Ebony & Blackjack, her brother is certainly getting fixed...I made sure my sister scheduled him at the same time as Ebony. That way they can recover together & be able to play again soon.
 

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First of all. I don't believe in "its okay for her to be around males when not in heat". Because 1) as your witnessed, the female can get grumpy and attack. 2) the female could of been hurt by the male. 3) the female could undergo ALOT of stress from a male dog trying to mate with her.

You really should of taken the extra steps to keep them apart if you wanted to take her in.
Well that's just silly. I have 7 bitches running with a whole male and never had any issues.

OP, tell the vet about the tie and have the male fixed as well at the same time. At the very least this will stop any unwanted pregnancies.

Does the male constantly try and hump all and any dogs or was this a one off.? If he does then you probably need to do some training to teach him this is unacceptable behaviour.

There is nothing wrong with males and females running together but you need to introduce strangers carefully and under full supervision. You and your friend did everything you needed to do in regard to the heat cycle and what happened was more or less not normal dog behaviour.

For the record, it is always wise to introduce dogs to each other carefully. You need to ensure thay are going to accept each other and not try and hurt themselves. Even if they are siblings, if they have been apart for some time, they do not recognise the fact they are siblings.
 

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Thank you, wvasko. I still feel guilty about it... though I truthfully do believe all will turn out for the best once she gets fixed.
Don't feel bad about it..... The first one of us that gets everything right all the time with their dogs, gets a whole case of cupie dolls.

The thing is, you are a novice, stuff happens, you are dealing with it appropriately, learning from it.....

Move on...
 

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Yeah it will turn out just fine. Don't worry so much and I certainly hope no one thinks you're a horrible person.

For the record it is perfectly fine to let intact males and intact females interact with each other while the female is not in heat.
 

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Well that's just silly. I have 7 bitches running with a whole male and never had any issues.

OP, tell the vet about the tie and have the male fixed as well at the same time. At the very least this will stop any unwanted pregnancies.

Does the male constantly try and hump all and any dogs or was this a one off.? If he does then you probably need to do some training to teach him this is unacceptable behaviour.

There is nothing wrong with males and females running together but you need to introduce strangers carefully and under full supervision. You and your friend did everything you needed to do in regard to the heat cycle and what happened was more or less not normal dog behaviour.

For the record, it is always wise to introduce dogs to each other carefully. You need to ensure thay are going to accept each other and not try and hurt themselves. Even if they are siblings, if they have been apart for some time, they do not recognise the fact they are siblings.

Well, there is in fact a female dog that is in heat that someone owns right next door to me. I, at first had thought maybe this was the reason he initially knotted with his sister because he had not tried at all during his & her first day here. They were playing like normal & nothing seemed wrong. He's tried getting at all the dogs my mother owns & they were not in heat...some were fixed...but this is not his first time knotting a dog that clearly wasn't in heat or was fixed. I'm being told it's a complete impossibility for that to happen by many people...so now, I'm guessing maybe it was in fact a silent heat.

Me & my sister actually received the dogs both on the same day from the same friend, sorry if I made a muddle of my words and actually made it seem as if one had come to the house before the other; they have been together constantly since birth. But that's what I found so strange about the whole ordeal, she clearly wasn't receptive & unwilling to mate with him...after she attacked him once to get the point across, she immediately became friendly once more. We, of course are keeping them away from each other for right now. I don't want the same thing happening again.
 

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And stories abound about dogs tying with not in heat bitches, neutered dogs tying with bitches, dogs tying with with spayed bitches, etc.

Until I witness it first hand, I say they are just stories......I have been around and at times involved with breeding dogs my entire life... .I am still at the story stage....
 

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Don't feel bad about it..... The first one of us that gets everything right all the time with their dogs, gets a whole case of cupie dolls.

The thing is, you are a novice, stuff happens, you are dealing with it appropriately, learning from it.....

Move on...
Well I'm a legend in my own mind and to the best of my recollections have never made any mistakes with my dogs. Of course if you believe that I still have some swampland in Florida for sale. I'm just sayin'..
 

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And stories abound about dogs tying with not in heat bitches, neutered dogs tying with bitches, dogs tying with with spayed bitches, etc.

Until I witness it first hand, I say they are just stories......I have been around and at times involved with breeding dogs my entire life... .I am still at the story stage....
my neutered farm mutt tied with my in heat mal. Personally witnessed. Wouldn't dare attempt it when not in heat, as she would eat him alive. He was neutered at 9 months.
 
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