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Discussion Starter #1
As much as Mia enjoys trying to push every boundary possible and take advantage of me as often as she can, Hank seems to be a devotee to the almighty 'Rules'.

EX:

In the past Hank has been very excitable about going outside. This resulted in a Mia that was afraid to go outside because she didn't want to get bowled over by the spotted wild blur.

So fast forward to a few weeks ago and I have started having Hank sit and wait to go outside until I release him. I get them to the back door, Hank sits and stays. I say 'Summer' and Summer goes outside, then I say 'Mia' and Mia goes outside. Hank waits and looks at me until I say 'Hank'. Once I say Hank he goes outside.

So twice today I have accidentally said 'Hank' first when I have let the dogs out. Hank has both times given me a very strange look and will not break his sit until after Mia and Summer go outside.

He cracks me up at how literal he tends to take the rules. The rule is Hank goes outside after both papillons. Hank cannot go outside even if I tell him to until both girls are out the door first.
 

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My dog likes consistency as well.

Last winter, we had snow taller than her & she hates getting her feet in the snow. I had shoveled a small grass area next to the patio for quick potty trips. Even though we don't have a fence, it was basically fenced in because she would never willing cross 3 feet of snow. I tried to get her to go outside without a leash & she refused to go out without a leash.
 

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Some dogs are so funny about rules. And especially what they decide the rules actually are.

Neither of my current dogs are rule followers, but the schnauzers I had growing up were really into their rules and routines.
 

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That is awesome! Belle too bowls over the other two if I just open the door to let them out. I just hold her until the other two are out and then let her go otherwise she usually jumps and lands right on top of Maya on the way out.
 

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That is very un-cattle dog like to be a rule follower haha, most of the ones I have had are only rules followers if they think that what they are doing is their idea lmao.
Really? That's he's the opposite of my experience with ACDs and every other herding breed.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
What a gentleman.
I don't know if I'd go THAT far. :p

He really cracks me up. Once he figures out what I want he is like 'Oh, okay. I can do that' and then does it religiously. He is all about patterns. Mia patterns *almost* as easily but usually if I watch her long enough I can find an ulterior motive involved. :p

I was pretty surprised after just a few days really of working on the wait at the door, he had already concluded that his job was to wait till after both papillons went outside. Not when I released him. I would have suspected him to just be cuing on the release word.
 

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Really? That's he's the opposite of my experience with ACDs and every other herding breed.
A properly managed ACD/ herding breed, yes, perhaps. But if they are not, watch out haha, they will run over (both literally and figuratively haha) anyone they think they can. Izze, for example was a nightmare for my parents, but an angel for me. Lincoln is the same, he is a nightmare for my husband, but a (sort of LOL) angel for me.
 

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A properly managed ACD/ herding breed, yes, perhaps. But if they are not, watch out haha, they will run over (both literally and figuratively haha) anyone they think they can. Izze, for example was a nightmare for my parents, but an angel for me. Lincoln is the same, he is a nightmare for my husband, but a (sort of LOL) angel for me.
I didn't take this thread to mean "does your dog follow *your* rules". I took to to mean "does your dog decide certain things are rules and then follow them even if nobody cares". So not related to biddability at all. Just related to dogs who seek patterns in things, or like things to be a certain way. IME, herding dogs especially love to come up with rules and enforce them on other dogs or people, or stick to the rules themselves, not having anything to do with what their owner actually wants them to do.

Sounds like Hank's rule was "must tackle little dogs when we go outside". Now Laurelin has changed that rule for him, but he made up another step to that rule that she didn't intend, and he's going to stick to it.
 

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I didn't take this thread to mean "does your dog follow *your* rules". I took to to mean "does your dog decide certain things are rules and then follow them even if nobody cares". So not related to biddability at all. Just related to dogs who seek patterns in things, or like things to be a certain way. IME, herding dogs especially love to come up with rules and enforce them on other dogs or people, or stick to the rules themselves, not having anything to do with what their owner actually wants them to do.

Sounds like Hank's rule was "must tackle little dogs when we go outside". Now Laurelin has changed that rule for him, but he made up another step to that rule that she didn't intend, and he's going to stick to it.
LOL Lincoln wont go in or out of a door unless he is invited ... like a vampire haha. When I take both him and Josefina to the bathroom, Josefina runs back home as soon as she is done, and he will follow her to a point, then look back as if to say "why is she leaving us, its not right!" And I am all like "No, its not right, its because she is a b***h." LOL
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I was really just marveling that Hank seemed to add in additional cues. I thought he was cuing off the 'okay' but he was really cuing off everything and realized when the 'okay' would happen. So when it happened too soon he was like 'Um... that's not the right time, Mom.'

Hank is really not manipulative though at all. I really think it's mostly individual personality that it comes down to. Nikki was very manipulative and sneaky. Mia is very very VERY manipulative and will railroad people (looking adorable at the same time). Nikki and Mia have a lot of other personality similarities too beyond their sneakiness. Hank sometimes needs more rules than the other dogs because of his *impulsiveness* but that's a totally different subject.
 

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Yeah, I didn't think of it as manipulative. More of an OCD type thing? I think of it as patterning mostly. Some dogs just really look for certain patterns and if the whole pattern isn't there (like Mia not going out first) then the dog is like "Wait, what? This cannot be!" Some dogs just do not notice patterns like that and are totally fine when things happen differently.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Summer is kind of OCD and she's really the only other dog that would invent rules for herself. Her thing is she would do a down stay and then pick a random release word. Sometimes 'Summer, come!' sometimes 'okay'. Sometimes 'free'. Sometimes I had to say it in a certain way. I could never figure it out. She doesn't do it as much anymore. But she would break her stay eventually and be all happy 'Woohoo did you see how good I was!? You were trying to trick me, Mom!'

Dogs are weird.

Mia on the other hand knows the rules and knows when they will not be enforced and how to use that to her advantage.
 

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The schnauzers we had growing up were fond of rules. Not that weird, but they would pick certain things that they did at certain times, and if they couldn't do that thing they were all thrown out of whack.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I always come back to mia on that Dognition test.

'Well you're telling me 'Leave it' but I know you're not gonna do anything about it.'
 

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I always come back to mia on that Dognition test.

'Well you're telling me 'Leave it' but I know you're not gonna do anything about it.'
Jubel did the same thing. I told him to "leave it" on the first round and after about 45 seconds of me ignoring him as the time counted down he inched forward a bit... since I didn't say anything (which I normally would have) he continued to inch forward looking at me expecting me to tell him to stop... I didn't so he quickly came to the conclusion "leave it" wasn't going to be enforced in this game. In the following rounds he broke earlier each time. Me turning my back or covering my eyes had no influence because he'd already figured out he could do what he wanted. I'm pretty sure the results would have been different for the turn your back and cover your eyes tests if they allowed verbal reminders if they started to break their stay in the first round.
 

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Wish mine would do it during feeding time. Absolutely NO discipline! They act like they would have been starving for days! I never change continuity of the dogs.First comes Fanta,then Fera,then Moka and the last Mimi.They have no clue about this.I have no clue why haven't they noticed this routine and why Fera still tries to get to Fanta's food and why Fanta still tries to steal Mimi's food.I hand feed them,because they eat raw and very often their meal is just a big piece of something,or 3 pieces of something,so I feed the entire meal to one dog and then move to next one.I have to admit our feeding time is a mess,they even might try to pull something out from someone else's mouth if it sticks out.And I'm to lazy to do something about it.They don't mind and don't fight over food,so let it be a mess.
 
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