A puppy that can hold it (strange)

You are good!

Yes, that is something that we both consider. When we first put her in the grass on that first day, we asked each other, "is she going? how about now? is that it?" etc. etc.

Also, not knowing the dog, we don't know her "going" move.

But we're getting better about it. I'm pretty darn sure she is not going without our notice. Both #1 and #2 happen in a distinct squat and most importantly, with the tail standing totally vertical.

I am not 100% on this, but I'm 99% sure I haven't missed it.

The problem is that I want to ignore her whines when I put her in the crate. But after 7, 8, 9, and then 10 hours of holding it, she forces me to respect her whines and dachshund "worried" behaviors. Therefore, I can't just throw her in the crate and take care of personal matters around the house very easily. I can't relax until I'm sure she has done it.

This post made me giggle, remembering when we first got our boy, Harper, 3 years ago. He's a mini dachshund, so he's really short!
His "move" is just to lower himself, just a tad, a teeny bit, and let it go. So, we had a hard time knowing if he was going, too!

He was kind of challenging, but he will ALWAYS find a way to pee, no matter how often he goes outside, even if it's just a drip! Even now, if he thinks it will make us happy, he'll squat and try super hard to pee!
Now, our girl, Abby, she's a dachshund-chihuahua mix, and she squats like a normal female! But, she was way more challenging to potty train!

Are you sure she's not peeing in the crate? Do you have bedding in the crate? It's kind of gross, but, when we were newbies, we did miss a few pees, and didn't realize he had gone in the crate until we actually got down to sniff and used a black light. When he was a young puppy, his pees were small, comparatively, so we really didn't notice.

But, you're right, I remember the feeling, not being able to relax until you know they've peed/pooped!

The theory behind using crates to potty train is that dogs don't want to sleep where they pee/poop, or they don't want to eat in an area where they have peed/pooped (which is why some people feed in the crate when it's time for feedings).

This is just a generalization, as when it gets to a certain point, and they just can't hold it anymore, they WILL go no matter where they are.

The other part of that theory is that they will TRY to hold it harder in their crate than if they were not in the crate, as they don't really care about soiling your house, just their crate!

But, here's this: very young puppies do not have physical control of their bladder/bowels. In the beginning, they don't even get signals from their body that they have to go; to them, it seems to come from out of nowhere. As they age, they will start to get those "feelings" that they have to go, and they will learn what it means. BUT, they still do not have full physical control of their bladder, as they are young, and physically not developed yet, including muscles needed to control bladder.
They won't have complete physical control until about 6 months of age.

That doesn't mean you have to deal with accidents until then, it just means you have to be more vigilant about knowing when she needs to go out.

Up til 6 months of age, and even past that for many puppies, imagine she's a toddler. They don't always know ahead of time when they need to go, and sometimes they THINK they can hold it, and overestimate how LONG they can hold it.

Now, in your case, none of this may matter, because, the occasional pup will defy all logic!

I've often wondered how a "crate" trains a dog. It makes it aversive to pee in the crate, but what would make the dog think it is aversive to pee in the house?... you know.... in some far off bedroom, for instance.

Surely, the process must have something to do with developing a "mindless" habit. The crate prevents the indoor piddling, you release the dog and take him immediately outdoors. The dog piddles outdoors. Perhaps you praise the pup at that point.

Rinse and repeat.

The behavioral contingency doesn't sound much like it takes advantage of the normal reinforcement/punishment principles. It seems to me that there is just something that is built in to (most) dogs that is helping us with this process.


One more thing:
How the heck do normal, working people manage a crated pup? If, as you say, pups can often go no more than 4 hours... what do working people do? Do they just come home to a soiled crate and clean it up?

ohbehave, I agree. Truthfully, I never used a crate for the purpose of potty training. I found that having our puppies out and about with us gave us a better opportunity to actually supervise them, learn their "potty signals", interrupt them if they started to go in the house (because you can't always see if they start to have accidents in the crate), and teach them the rules of the house.

The way we did it was just having them in our sight at all times. If they were playing in our sight, fine, great, but the moment they got up and started to head somewhere else, so did we, to make sure what they were up to, to see if they needed to pee, etc.
If we needed to do chores, THEN we would put them in their ex pen or crate. But, it usually wasn't long.

As for working, with our first puppy, my fiance was able to take him to work with him. When we got our second puppy almost a year later, we left them both home. The new puppy was crated, the older guy was in the kitchen with a baby gate across the doorway.

With our work schedules, I left first, around 7 am. My fiance didn't leave til 9 am. I'd come home at noon, 3 hours later, and let them out, play, etc. Then, I'd come home at 4. So, they weren't alone for more than a few hours at a time.