[ohbehave]

Ok, so this Doxie-mix pup has been in my house for a week and a half.

She has had no mistakes inside (but that is with my obsessive watching and crating technique).

Today, she went at 5:30am (1 & 2). So, I come back from work (lunch time) and walk her all over the yard. Nothing.

Then, my girlfriend takes her out at 2:30pm. Nothing.

Then, after running her around... giving her some food.... and waiting... she finally goes at 3:30pm. That is 10 hours from her last relief! At that point, she did #1 & 2 again.

Notice that this isn't 10 hours in a crate... this is 10 hours which included a number of outside visits. On the final, successful trip outside, the dog did go to the front door.

From my experience, even when my previous dogs didn't really have to "go", the dog would at least find a way to piddle a little bit when it was outside.

I have heard that Dachshunds have notorious house training problems. This one is a mix, but the mix is with a Basset... not exactly a stellar house training dog either.

Anyway, is this common? Do some pups just have incredible bladders/bowels?

 

[Hambonez]

Is it possible she's going quickly outside and you aren't noticing? It's not always easy to tell with those stubby legs (we have a doxie-mix too) and these little guys can pee SO fast without missing a beat. You may have also just lucked out!

 

[ohbehave]

You are good!

Yes, that is something that we both consider. When we first put her in the grass on that first day, we asked each other, "is she going? how about now? is that it?" etc. etc.

Also, not knowing the dog, we don't know her "going" move.

But we're getting better about it. I'm pretty darn sure she is not going without our notice. Both #1 and #2 happen in a distinct squat and most importantly, with the tail standing totally vertical.

I am not 100% on this, but I'm 99% sure I haven't missed it.

The problem is that I want to ignore her whines when I put her in the crate. But after 7, 8, 9, and then 10 hours of holding it, she forces me to respect her whines and dachshund "worried" behaviors. Therefore, I can't just throw her in the crate and take care of personal matters around the house very easily. I can't relax until I'm sure she has done it.

 

[doxiemommy]

This post made me giggle, remembering when we first got our boy, Harper, 3 years ago. He's a mini dachshund, so he's really short!
His "move" is just to lower himself, just a tad, a teeny bit, and let it go. So, we had a hard time knowing if he was going, too!

He was kind of challenging, but he will ALWAYS find a way to pee, no matter how often he goes outside, even if it's just a drip! Even now, if he thinks it will make us happy, he'll squat and try super hard to pee!
Now, our girl, Abby, she's a dachshund-chihuahua mix, and she squats like a normal female! But, she was way more challenging to potty train!

Are you sure she's not peeing in the crate? Do you have bedding in the crate? It's kind of gross, but, when we were newbies, we did miss a few pees, and didn't realize he had gone in the crate until we actually got down to sniff and used a black light. When he was a young puppy, his pees were small, comparatively, so we really didn't notice.

But, you're right, I remember the feeling, not being able to relax until you know they've peed/pooped!

 

[ohbehave]

I can't wait for this to be a feeling that I must remember nostalgically. Admittedly, I something of a disgruntled puppy owner! This little girl has cancelled all of my plans. Living on my first property with acres in an old, troubled home, I have a number of projects which are now on hold.

My life now revolves around the pooping habits of a 10 lb mutt.

 

[ohbehave]

Let me ask this...

Some people talk as though the crate trains the dog to "hold it". Some go further to suggest that this training strengthens the muscles associated with "holding it".

Is this the case? Can these muscles be strengthened?

My guess is that answer is mostly "no". These muscles or whatever creates the control are strengthened just as a part of maturing.

 

[hargyle]

Let me ask this...

Some people talk as though the crate trains the dog to "hold it". Some go further to suggest that this training strengthens the muscles associated with "holding it".

Is this the case? Can these muscles be strengthened?

My guess is that answer is mostly "no". These muscles or whatever creates the control are strengthened just as a part of maturing.

I have never heard of this ... they generally learn not to go in the crate because they are clean animals by nature and don't like laying in their own mess. But Maybe? I have only ever known that they get stronger as they develop and can hold it Age in months +1 ( 4 months +1 = hold for 5 hours) is the general rule of thumb. Loki would get so worked up because he was uncomfortable he would piddle on his bed then fight his way behind it (pushing it up and out of his way) so he didn't have to lay on it.

 

[ohbehave]

We just had a piddle (outside) only three hours after her last piddle..... but it was 10 hours before that one (if we are correct in saying that she hadn't gone during that time).

She might be marginally over 4 months at the very most.

The humane society lady said that Gilly's crate remained clean over-night. That adds a bit of evidence that she might be a precocious "Holder"

 

[doxiemommy]

The theory behind using crates to potty train is that dogs don't want to sleep where they pee/poop, or they don't want to eat in an area where they have peed/pooped (which is why some people feed in the crate when it's time for feedings).

This is just a generalization, as when it gets to a certain point, and they just can't hold it anymore, they WILL go no matter where they are.

The other part of that theory is that they will TRY to hold it harder in their crate than if they were not in the crate, as they don't really care about soiling your house, just their crate!

But, here's this: very young puppies do not have physical control of their bladder/bowels. In the beginning, they don't even get signals from their body that they have to go; to them, it seems to come from out of nowhere. As they age, they will start to get those "feelings" that they have to go, and they will learn what it means. BUT, they still do not have full physical control of their bladder, as they are young, and physically not developed yet, including muscles needed to control bladder.
They won't have complete physical control until about 6 months of age.

That doesn't mean you have to deal with accidents until then, it just means you have to be more vigilant about knowing when she needs to go out.

Up til 6 months of age, and even past that for many puppies, imagine she's a toddler. They don't always know ahead of time when they need to go, and sometimes they THINK they can hold it, and overestimate how LONG they can hold it.

Now, in your case, none of this may matter, because, the occasional pup will defy all logic!

 

[ohbehave]

I've often wondered how a "crate" trains a dog. It makes it aversive to pee in the crate, but what would make the dog think it is aversive to pee in the house?... you know.... in some far off bedroom, for instance.

Surely, the process must have something to do with developing a "mindless" habit. The crate prevents the indoor piddling, you release the dog and take him immediately outdoors. The dog piddles outdoors. Perhaps you praise the pup at that point.

Rinse and repeat.

The behavioral contingency doesn't sound much like it takes advantage of the normal reinforcement/punishment principles. It seems to me that there is just something that is built in to (most) dogs that is helping us with this process.


One more thing:
How the heck do normal, working people manage a crated pup? If, as you say, pups can often go no more than 4 hours... what do working people do? Do they just come home to a soiled crate and clean it up?

 

[Hambonez]

One more thing:
How the heck do normal, working people manage a crated pup? If, as you say, pups can often go no more than 4 hours... what do working people do? Do they just come home to a soiled crate and clean it up?

We come home at lunch time Or we have a local dog walker who will come over and take him out.

 

[doxiemommy]

ohbehave, I agree. Truthfully, I never used a crate for the purpose of potty training. I found that having our puppies out and about with us gave us a better opportunity to actually supervise them, learn their "potty signals", interrupt them if they started to go in the house (because you can't always see if they start to have accidents in the crate), and teach them the rules of the house.

The way we did it was just having them in our sight at all times. If they were playing in our sight, fine, great, but the moment they got up and started to head somewhere else, so did we, to make sure what they were up to, to see if they needed to pee, etc.
If we needed to do chores, THEN we would put them in their ex pen or crate. But, it usually wasn't long.

As for working, with our first puppy, my fiance was able to take him to work with him. When we got our second puppy almost a year later, we left them both home. The new puppy was crated, the older guy was in the kitchen with a baby gate across the doorway.

With our work schedules, I left first, around 7 am. My fiance didn't leave til 9 am. I'd come home at noon, 3 hours later, and let them out, play, etc. Then, I'd come home at 4. So, they weren't alone for more than a few hours at a time.

 

[ohbehave]

That is a fortunate set of circumstances, Doxie!

Most people, though, are gone all day aren't they? I get the impression that they'd be told that they'd be told that they are unsuited as dog owners. Perhaps if they had a dog run outside.

I was thinking of constructing one for my little pup. I need to control her access to things, outside, that could create bad habits.... while allowing me to take my mind off of her as I do my chores.

 

[hargyle]

I also would come home on my lunch. mind you, I'm only a 10 min drive away ... I have a new job starting soon so we have some troubleshooting we need to do. our three working theories are : 1. we put him in his "own" room - we have a spare room that is actually empty -- with a gate we would build ( baby gates wont cut it, he can jump - I know the building a gate isn't ideal but in my opinion it's better than shutting the door.
2. a friend has volunteered to take him for a few hours a day .. but it's not consistent or reliable at the moment
3. dog day care -- look into it in your area if you want him to do something - the one we are looking at is $30 / 11.5 hr day, he gets outside and inside play, grooming, training, feeds. everything he will need.

 

[reynosa_k9's]

I have 2 1/2mo. old that goes to bed at 10pm and doesn't get up until 6am and even then I have to push him out the door. You would think a puppy that young would have to pee pretty badly after 8hrs. but not my little guy.
So, yes, some puppies do have incredible bladder control.

 

[Rene]

I have 2 1/2mo. old that goes to bed at 10pm and doesn't get up until 6am and even then I have to push him out the door. You would think a puppy that young would have to pee pretty badly after 8hrs. but not my little guy.
So, yes, some puppies do have incredible bladder control.

Wow! My 7 week old puppy goes to bed at 10:30 and we set an alarm for 3:30 to take her out to potty - but she is always still asleep at this time. Then she whines when we put her back in the crate and especially throws a fit if we try to do so without bottle feeding her. Since she is still asleep at that time I'm thinking we could extend the time. Maybe soon she will be sleeping all night! What a blessing that would be!