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2 Posts
Discussion Starter #1

Okay I am going to lay down the the facts as simple as possible and will explain more later if needed.

Dog: Beagle/Foxhound named Bacon. He is 1 1/2 years old.
We adopted him when he was 5 months old. He only had one accident in his crate before and that was the night we brought him home over a year ago.

For the past 3 nights he has peed in his crate.

He does not get water after 7pm
We always let him out before we go to bed (11:30ish)
When this happened we immediately tore everything out of the crate and sprayed everything down with natures miracle and washed it. After it happened the second time we put the divider back in his crate so he only has room to barley turn around (he still peed right where he was sleeping..he was laying in it!!!)
He has had no other accidents in the house and never does.

For the past 3 nights he gets restless around 10pm and starts panting. He paces back and forth like he usually does when he has to go out. We take him out and he will pee a little. We bring him back in and sit back down and he will relax for a moment and then start panting and pacing again. Last night we took him out 3 times in a row and he would just sit outside for about 5-6 minutes and then pee just a little bit. He seems to be anxious and stressed. But when we put him to bed with his Kong he is fine. We never here another peep from him the rest of the night and he never whines to go out.
In the past 6 weeks we have started using a professional dog trainer and started a pretty intense training program with him and I feel that this could somehow be related. (although why it started 3 nights ago I have no idea) I called the trainer and he told me to do everything that we have already done..so no help there. Although he did recommend that we buy an herbal pet stress reliever which we will try.
Bacon has dominance issues, leash aggression issues, and just a lack of listening issues. So his world has been changed around to say the least when it come to him being the pack leader...which is no longer is.
The next step will be calling our vet. Although I doubt that it is an infection because he has no other symptoms and his urination is completely normal during the day.
We have been through so much with Bacon (spending over 14,000$ in a year on adoption,vet bills, emergency vet bills, boarding, daycare, trainers, classes, pet airways flight across the country, food, and training supplies) This trainer was our last resort (costing us $1500 so far) And I guess the new urinating in the crate is just stressing us all out even more.

Any Help or Advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you so much,

507 Posts
I would still rule out a bladder infection first.
Then consider that something is scaring him at night or the stress from the trainer that you mentioned.
Is the crate in the same bedroom as you are.
How is he outside of the crate at night.
You might need to start over on crate acclimation or start over on house training or consider Separation Anxiety and work on that. Sometimes a traumatic experience can start SA and many dogs with SA panic in a crate.

What type of training methods does this trainer use? Training should be fun. How does your baby look during training. If he doesn't look like his is having fun, the back off the harsh stuff.

Look for signs of stress during training
Lip licking
eyes darting
head turning
whites of eyes showing
dilate pupils
tail tucked
head down
grimacing (can be mistaken for a smile)
and more

If the trainer is throwing around words like dominance, pack leader, etc.. I'd be extremely leary of him/her. Those aren't bad words per say, but they have been misused and over used so much now, that I'm leary of any trainer that uses them.

Please please tell me that the trainer isn't yanking the leash or stringing the dog up.

The trainer should be working on a program of desensitization and counter conditioning (I hope he/she is) to help with leash aggression. Here is an example of what the trainer should be doing: http://blog.mysanantonio.com/latrenda/how-can-i-help-my-dog-to-like-other-dogs/

If the trainer does any type of punishment after the fact (wait until the dog snarls then "corrects") then please please find another trainer.

A good book on a kind way to be a pack leader: http://amzn.to/e2lCks - By Patricia McConnell. If the trainer isn't teaching the types of steps in this book, then please find another trainer.

More on potty training: http://blog.mysanantonio.com/latrenda/potty-training-101/
Sometimes you just have to start all over

For listening issues, please consider proofing:

Crate acclimation:

Is the trainer using an startle methods? Does he/she hit the crate for barking - spray the dog in the face, set up booby traps, etc.. If so, stop those immediately.

2 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Thank you for your response... All I can say right now is how confused, stressed and frustrated my fiance and I are right now. Everything you said our trainer shouldn't be doing...he is. But for us this trainer was our last resort and came highly recommend by our trusted vet who gets rave reviews from everyone. We chose our trainer for that reason and because of the success stories we had heard, because he has been featured on many news shows/radio shows/david letterman show....and because we felt it was our last hope.
It is frustrating for us because someone will tell us one thing while another person will tell us something different. For a year we only did positive training...We did this on our own, then with the helps of books/forums, then to classes, then to a professional positive trainer. Nothing helped. My Fiance and I were prisoner in our own home and our lives revolved only around Bacon (they still do). Being unable to leave our home, have guests over, go for walks without dodging people/animals and never being able to leave him alone for one minute because in 30 seconds he would be into something...tearing up something.
Bacon is not a hyper dog, and he doesn't really bark that often. The only thing we know about his past is that he was surrendered for "unreasonable expectations" When we first got him we were able to house train him in a few weeks along with teach him sit,down, shake and rollover. He is smart. Too smart. And he is manipulative. Of course he would/will do anything for a treat (we had treats strapped behind our waists for 6 months straight..I always smelled like treats) but no treat...no results. He knows when you have them and know when you don't. Try mixing it up...give him treats sometimes and sometimes don't so he never knows....Tried that. Doesn't work.
Things slowly over time became worse and worse...This is my second beagle mix, I know they are known for being mischievous and so on so I had a little insight to a few issues we were dealing with but not for others.
When we first got him we immediately began to socialize him with people and other dogs...no problems. He was sweet to everyone. Did great at daycare/dog parks/dog friendly restaurants/ having guests over/going over to guests homes.. etc. Then I can remember going for a walk at a park and while standing on a bridge another couple came walking by with their German Sheppard, they asked if our dog was friendly and if they could meet. I said sure (why wouldn't I he never had any issues before) Out of the blue he starts trashing around and does this weird growl thing and goes into some sort of attack mode. I watched the whole thing...there was nothing obvious that set him off. I apologized and the couple said not to worry a walked away. I thought "how strange". Then nothing for a while... then again at a petsmart the same thing happened... For a while after it was just dogs... then dogs that were 5 ft away..then 10 ft.. the trashing would start...every time we walked by (we were doing no corrections at first...and then tried distracting with treats..no luck) Then we were sitting on our porch one day and a couple walked by on the sidewalk...he jumped up and started trashing around...this turned into him doing the same thing on walks...now when we walked by people/kids/bikes/strollers/joggers he would do the same thing...terrifying people. He literally would look like he was going mad..I can't explain it. No distractions would work.. We looked up and found out about leash re-activeness.. okay...so then we work on correcting that in all sorts of manors and end up hiring a trainer... he brings us back to treats.. back to lowering the treas-hold.. small steps etc.... Nothing....nothing works... I could see the professional trainer at a loss (this was a guy from the best place in Indianapolis... we did our research on trainers) We read books...forums... nothing helps. We resort to trying to do walks early in the morning and late at night.. but I am not going to spend the rest of my life avoiding people and other dogs. And no matter what we can't always avoid them...other people walk their dogs early in the morning and late as night as well.
The crate.... We spent so much time acclimating him to the crate...playing the crate games..going in and out of the house..leaving him in there for 5 seconds...30 seconds..5 minutes...10 minutes..30 minutes.. getting the car keys but not going anywhere...putting our coats on but not leaving the house.. His crate was in our room.. Everything... we did everything we were told to do.. Usually he would howl for 10-30 minutes straight. I think we maybe actually only left him at home in the crate for an hour twice. And never again because he torn up his bedding, pulled in the crate cover, ate the zippers, pushed out the bottom tray and chewed that up too. So for a year we didn't get to leave.. I can't even begin to explain how this was affecting mine and my fiance's relationship. We couldn't leave him out anywhere either..no way. not in the house, and not in a room with a gate.. chews on gates...gets into everything. We exercised this dog like crazy btw. 3 one hour walks a day... then we started taking him to daycare 500$ for every 20 days. He would play all day 7 hours a day... Still we had the same problems at home.
Soon he started trashing around not on a leash... he would trash around and bite whatever was next to him when he heard a noise that he didn't like...it could be anything..a dog..a person...and creaky floor.. He would sometimes wake up after sleeping at just bash his head around and attack his bed. Once it was my fiance's leg ( scared now). There was no way to try and correct this..because it happened without any warning and would only last for a few seconds.
Now when guests came over they would get up to leave and go to open the door and Bacon would lunge after them and bite their sleeves... or howl at them.. No one could come to the door. During this whole time...everything that I am telling you we were practicing positive training... we are stepping on leashes at the door... giving treats when people came over for good association. Trying to put him in his crate when people came over but that was nearly impossible because you would have to take him upstairs where the crate was. But you couldn't get him up there...try and grab his leash and he may try to bite you or trash around.

So fast forward...we move to CA. We fly bacon out on Pet Airways because having him in the car...hotels.. would be a nightmare. We shell out 900$ so he doesn't have to go below in cargo (it was September and I had heard to many stories about pets getting over heated on planes)and instead he flies in cabin with the only "pet Only" airline.

So now we are living in CA (October 2010)with the same problems... Things continue to get worse...despite continued positive training... at some point he bites my fiance's mom because he steals a paper towel out of the trash and she goes to take it back...right through her hand. Now he is possessive and continues to get more so... we start trading him...treats for items. We practice drop it...we yell at the items not the dog so he won't want them, we replace items with toys treats.. etc.. He steals a razor off of a bathroom counter, my fiance NEEDS to get it back from him before Bacon injures himself..Bacon bites him with the razor in his mouth and cuts him with the razor and his teeth.
We payed extra for our condo rental because it has a small backyard area... can we use it, no.. He starts to huff and puff at the fence. We find out a 15 year old dog that never barks and barely moves lives outside next door. Bacon cannot see or hear this dog but he can smell it and it drives him nuts.. Every time we take him outside he runs to the 8 ft wood fence and tries to jump it...trashing around huffing and puffing. Then he starts jumping and biting the high bush branches that line the fence hanging from them...just dangling there growling... he weighs 55lbs..and starts to destroy the bushed and fence. So we start taking him out back on a leash ..now he attacks the sliding glass door every time we open it...or our legs. (we both have scarred legs) No distractions...treats... clickers..nothing gets rid of this obsession he has with the dog next door. So we stop letting him back there all together and have to take him out on a leash to go to the bathroom every time he has to go.
Once my Fiance's parents came over and took him on a walk for us because we needed to do a little work out back to try and repair our yard. My fiance's dad cannot hear well and could not hear a jogger approaching from behind as they were on a walk... Bacon with no warning lunges at her and pulls her pants down. She is then jogging with her pink thong exposed and pulls her pants up and just keeps going... This could have been a thousand times worse if he would have grabbed her skin...we could have been sued. (he did this with his gentle leader on)
As we are trapped in our new home in CA with the same problems that continued to get worse we found ourselves being depressed and feeling hopeless about Bacon. Our lives out here consisted of the same things every day. Wake up, take bacon for a walk, work (from home) then go the dog park for an hour, come back home, eat dinner, play with bacon, go to bed. We started boarding him on Saturdays so we could have one day...one day a week to be able to leave our home and be able to do something together. We have made no friends out here nor have we been able to explore our new state because our lives revolved around this dog.
We were at the point where we were out of money to spend on Bacon. Moving out here was a great cost and the cost of living is more than twice of what we were paying in IN...Not to mention that we had already spent over 12,000$ on him. We added everything up..that was hard to swallow. We started talking about finding a beagle rescue or re-homing him with the assistance of a local shelter. We would never surrender him to a shelter because they are all kill shelters out here. But we thought if we could find him a home out in the country where he could have a big backyard and not have to go on walks and if he had other dogs with play with (he does great at the dog park) that those situations that are problems for him would not exist. Or at least we could find someone who had the means to rehabilitate him further...as we had exhausted our funds on Bacon. This is something that I never dreamed of doing... All of my animals have been rescues... and I always believed that you are responsible for your animal...you are the one that brought them into your home. But when it came down to money, the aggression, and constant stress, anxiety, and depression we were dealing with we had to find more options.
But we love Bacon. Now we are in the present...where we decided we would give it one more full blast shot. We talked with our vet here who is an amazing man who gets rave reviews and gives back to the animal community...he came highly recommended and when we told him everything we were dealing with he recommenced our trainer.
Since our 3 sessions we have had so far I can say that Bacon is 75% better. He no longer is possessive, we can now let him out in the back yard and he stays away from the fence. He walked by dogs and people without a peep...he comes when called. He listens when we tell him not to get into stuff...he walks by the cat food bowl and won't touch it. He waits in front of doors and lets us go out first.
But all this came with the training. With the pinch collar.. with the E-Collar...with the air spray in the face. He now goes in his crate when the doorbell rings and is quiet when guests are here (but that came with the band on the crate and the air spray) He does everything that we ask without a treat (although we still give him one here and there just because) ... When the trainer comes over he is sad....he is timid. But then a couple days later he is back to his own personality. We have one session left. It was four sessions for 500$ plus the E-collar was $350.
This is it for us... We cannot afford any more professional training after this. If this does not work we will need to find someone who has the finances to help Bacon.

I don't even know if anyone will read all of this. This post is not structured at all and it's all over the place...I don't even know if it makes any sense. I am sure I have left out things...things that would explain better. I think I just needed to write all of this down. Its hard when we have talked with so many people, professionals, vets, forums...and we get the same responses...And I feel rude saying "yes I know...we have already tried that" But that is what it comes down to. And it's hard when we are judged harshly sometimes for mentioning that we have thought about finding him a new home. But I'm sure everyone's situations are unique and no one knows exactly what we have been through or are going through.

I think most of all we just want our lives back,to be happy and we want Bacon to be happy.

I apologize for any spelling or grammatical errors....and just for the shear length of my rant.

Thank you for all of your help,

Jess, Scott, and Bacon
507 Posts
I'll read the whole thing later. I'm on my way out. I strongly suggest you stop using a trainer who abuses your dog for pay :(
Just because he/she has some dogs too scared to do anything doesn't mean he/she gets results.
There is a difference between shut down and calm
A different between scared to move and obedient.

I have met a LOT of bad trainers - positive and non positve. You just have to keep looking until you find one who knows what he/she is doing.
A lot of bad trainers will say positve doesn't work but that's just because they were not implementing it correctly.

I'll post more thoughts on this later.

How wonderful that you haven't given up on the dog. It's obvious you care.

Okay. Just read the whole thing. I very sorry for your troubles.
If the harsh stuff works for you, and that's what you want to do, then not much more I can say I guess

I'm not a fan of meds but I'd rather give my dog psychotropic drugs (that might damange his liver) than let a scary person string him up - which could be psychologically and physically damaging.

Just be careful and stay in complete control of the situation. Here is an article I'm working on about really aversive trainers

Good luck to you.

5,918 Posts
I'm surely not a dog trainer but I'd stop using the one you have. I may have missed something, been a long day for me but what are the issues you need a trainer for? Do a google search for certified positive dog trainers. Schedule an appointment with your vet, take in a urine sample, preferably a first morning one. Is the mat in the crate something that is taken to the trainers? The Kong?
507 Posts
I'm surely not a dog trainer but I'd stop using the one you have. I may have missed something, been a long day for me but what are the issues you need a trainer for? Do a google search for certified positive dog trainers. Schedule an appointment with your vet, take in a urine sample, preferably a first morning one. Is the mat in the crate something that is taken to the trainers? The Kong?
If I'm remembering correctly:
The OP has tried a bunch of different trainers for their dog's reactivity issues. They are using this harsh one because their vet recommended him and he is on TV - which reminds me of another thread on this Pattison (sp?) guy.

If I'm remembering correctly:
The OP has tried a bunch of different trainers for their dog's reactivity issues. They are using this harsh one because their vet recommended him and he is on TV - which reminds me of another thread on this Pattison (sp?) guy.
Oh my goodness! I hope it's not the Pattison Guy!!
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