I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(
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Thread: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

  1. #61
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by gingerkid View Post
    I'm confused where I said dogs are "good" at digesting carbs? Actually, I didn't comment at all on "goodness" of a dog's ability to digest carbs, other than they are better at digesting carbs than wolves (which is completely supported by the study). And I never referred to veggies (raw or cooked) at all. So.... could you please explain to me where I didn't "do my own homework"?
    I think there I was replying to ireth who was replying to someone else. . .. I'm not saying dogs should never have any plant material. Just saying that raw veggies are probably not going to be well digested, so if you want to give your dog veggies or grains they probably should be cooked or pureed.

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  3. #62
    Senior Member Little Wise Owl's Avatar
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Gaston View Post
    This post was brought to my attention today because my assistant saw it on Facebook last week. It has been interesting reading all the recent commentary. There are several points that may be helpful:

    Megan2010 makes the statement that she was feeding a "very balanced diet". While I am advocate of homemade and raw diets, one of the obvious advantages of most commercial diets is the minimum AAFCO nutrient content in those 'balanced' foods. Though they are not optimum, they do eliminate many possible deficiencies. Regardless, nutrition always needs to be considered with any disease process. Dogs are as biochemically diverse as they are different in appearance - just as people are. So, while generalizations can be made about diet, ultimately we are feeding individuals and we need to determine what works best for each individual.

    EPA doses have been shown to be safe and efficacious at a dose as high as 180 mg EPA/4.55 kg (Double-blinded Crossover Study with Marine Oil Supplementation Containing High-dose Eicosapentaenoic Acid for the Treatment of Canine Pruritic Skin Disease
    Veterinary Dermatology Volume 5, Issue 3, pages 99–104, September 1994). At 80 kg body weight, and assuming these are typical 1000mg fish oil capsules containing possibly 300 mg EPA per capsule, the dose used in the cited study would be 10.5 capsules per day. Some of the posted comments suggest that 8 capsules would be excessive. From these calculations, that dose would be expected to be a safe dose for a dog of that size.

    According to Small Animal Clinical Nutrition 4th Edition, "For foods containing fish oils, AAFCO recommends an addition (i.e., above the minimum level) of 10 IU vitamin E/g fish oil/kg of food." This additional vitamin E should be added in addition to an adequate amount already present in the diet. If the diet was previously deficient in vitamin E, then additional PUFA would make the situation worse. Good quality oils such as Pure Encapsulations or Nordic Naturals will have the necessary additional vitamin E to avoid inducing a deficiency state in an adequately balanced diet.

    All the discussion about diet composition is interesting - everyone has an opinion. When it comes to vitamin E, I have had this same conversation with several clients recently who claimed that dogs are strict carnivores and fruits/vegetables/plans substances have no place in the carnivore diet. My observations suggest that dogs are opportunistic feeders and will eat a variety of substances including fruits and vegetables when they are available and depending on their level of hunger. The other important thing to note about vitamin E is that it is essential and is only synthesized by plants. The best sources are vegetable oils, seed oils, grains, and some green plant leaves. "Animal tissues tend to be low in vitamin E with the highest levels occurring in fatty tissues." (Small Animal Clinical Nutrition 4th Ed.) So, I think that there may be a legitimate need for supplemental oils, seeds, vegetables, etc. in a dog's diet.

    Lastly, the distinction between 'natural' (d-) and synthetic (d,l) 'vitamin E' is of little practical consequence because these are both single-constituent chemical supplements taken out of context of their natural form and balance. Vitamin E consists of eight closely related compounds - 4 tocopherols and 4 tocotrienols. Real vitamin E contains all eight compounds and is best found in food and food concentrates. Most supplemental forms of vitamin E, are simply one fraction of the total vitamin E complex. This unbalanced intake of a single portion of the vitamin E complex is what leads to the seemingly paradoxical results of some recent nutritional studies. Several have shown, instead of benefits of alpha-tocopherol supplementation, an increase in death rates of humans taking >400 IU alpha-tocopherol/day. Unbalanced, unnatural supplementation can yield unpredictable results.
    Great post!! Thank you for sharing.

  4. #63
    Senior Member gingerkid's Avatar
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Willowy View Post
    I think there I was replying to ireth who was replying to someone else. . .. I'm not saying dogs should never have any plant material. Just saying that raw veggies are probably not going to be well digested, so if you want to give your dog veggies or grains they probably should be cooked or pureed.
    She was replying to IceWeasel who was replying to my post by saying:

    I'm not doing your homework for you. As you've said, the proof isn't there that grain feeding by humans altered their digestive systems to accomodate raw vegetables in their diet. What I asked for was evidence that they can digest raw veggies. Rather than throwing out links and demeaning people it would be more prudent to simply post the portion of the article that makes the case.
    Who at no point until that post had ever actually asked for evidence that dogs can digest raw veggies. Raw veggies were also not mentioned by anyone who brought up the research article, in relation to the research article supporting that idea. IceWeasel was originally talking about how dogs only have the same digestive capabilities as wolves:

    Quote Originally Posted by Iceweasel View Post
    Dogs are bred to be dogs but I do not believe their basic anatomy has evolved.
    Which, as the article which several of us have referenced, is not true, since dogs are now better at digesting carbohydrates than their lupine ancestors.
    Last edited by gingerkid; 01-28-2014 at 10:36 PM.
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  6. #64
    Senior Member xoxluvablexox's Avatar
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Mercola has a really good vitamin e supplement. Uses sunflower instead of soy, not synthetic, and has all 8 compounds. The vitamin e supplement I have now, which I occasionally give to my dog since he's getting fish oil every day, is pretty good as far as at least having the 4 tocopherols and being made by a reputable supplement maker but it does use soybean oil & didn't mention anything about the tocotrienols. It's not synthetic though, so I think it probably has all 8 compounds but the tocotrienols aren't really cared about much in the scientific world. The reason why most supplements only have the alpha tocopherol is because that's the only compound that has really been the focus of most studies dealing with the effects of vitamin e on health.
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  7. #65
    Senior Member JohnnyBandit's Avatar
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by peterinwa View Post
    My dogs eat kibble three times a day, then get veggie snacks between meals.

    A vet once pointed out that when a carnivore kills a herbivore, the first thing it does it rip the stomach open and eat the intestines, absorbing the vitamins and nutrition from the veggies it's been eating. He said they can't get too many veggies to supplement their diet.

    First thing a carnivore does is pull out the stomach, slit it open and shake out all the vegetable matter.... A lot of people assume because they eat the stomach they get the vegetable matter. Fact is, they shake out the veggies.
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  8. #66
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    does a product with astaxanthin do the same job vitamin e will? having trouble finding a low dose vitamin e product to give along with the fish oil...i don't really want to give my dogs 400 iu a dose when it seems like i need 10 iu per gram of epa+dha. Krill oil seems safer than fish oil, and usually has the astaxanthin with it, but i'm unsure as to if vitamin e is still needed, or if they do the same function.

    the mercola kill oil pump looks interesting-krill oil, astaxanthin, and says tocopherols are also in the 'extra ingredients', tho i'm unsure of how much...or even the epa/dha content.

    thoughts?
    Last edited by berniezuli; 06-11-2014 at 05:03 PM. Reason: added information

  9. #67
    Senior Member Gally's Avatar
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyBandit View Post
    First thing a carnivore does is pull out the stomach, slit it open and shake out all the vegetable matter.... A lot of people assume because they eat the stomach they get the vegetable matter. Fact is, they shake out the veggies.
    Agreed. I've seen a lot of photos of wolf kills on deer and other large prey and the one organ that is often left uneaten is the stomach/intestines or where it has been eaten the veg matter is left on the ground.

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