I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(
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  1. #21
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    All I know is that when I removed veggies from my dog's diet she did very poorly, and that in vet tech school every single one of my teachers warned me against feeding solely raw. All a matter of opinion.

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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    People have opinions but they don't change the facts. If you are giving raw veggies, it's still raw. Meat comes from a variety of sources, if it was from open range well fed stock that would be one thing, but meat factories for fast cheap meat is another. I would imagine bones would be very important is a raw meat diet, as there are a lot of vitamins and minerals there.

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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Megan2010, thank you for your thorough post.

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    Senior Member taquitos's Avatar
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayota View Post
    All I know is that when I removed veggies from my dog's diet she did very poorly, and that in vet tech school every single one of my teachers warned me against feeding solely raw. All a matter of opinion.
    I feed my dog pretty much solely raw. He gets veggies once in a blue moon.

    Same with my friend's two dogs (and I know plenty more who almost never feed veggies).

    They're all doing fantastically well But obviously not all dogs are going to do well with a diet like that, I just don't think veggies or fruits are as necessary as everyone believes.

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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Iceweasel View Post
    People have opinions but they don't change the facts. If you are giving raw veggies, it's still raw. Meat comes from a variety of sources, if it was from open range well fed stock that would be one thing, but meat factories for fast cheap meat is another. I would imagine bones would be very important is a raw meat diet, as there are a lot of vitamins and minerals there.
    She got bones, organs, pretty much everything required. I don't feed her raw veggies as a staple, that would be ludicrous. I don't even eat raw veggies, they taste awful.

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    Senior Member taquitos's Avatar
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayota View Post
    She got bones, organs, pretty much everything required. I don't feed her raw veggies as a staple, that would be ludicrous. I don't even eat raw veggies, they taste awful.
    Like I said, it doesn't work with every dog but for 90% of the dogs I've seen who have switched to raw did well so I guess my first reaction is to maybe try to troubleshoot with you to see what went wrong. I think raw is difficult for dogs with specific protein allergies, but I honestly think generally if they are getting the right ratio of red meats to white meats and plenty of omega 3s and a good variety, they generally don't do badly on it.

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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    I didn't think it was a good idea to experiment on my dog when I was watching her lose weight before my eyes to the point of seeing ribs no matter what I did.

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    Senior Member taquitos's Avatar
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayota View Post
    I didn't think it was a good idea to experiment on my dog when I was watching her lose weight before my eyes to the point of seeing ribs no matter what I did.
    Well I obviously don't know what you were doing so I can't tell you what I would have done differently As long as Roxie is healthy and happy right now I really couldn't care less lol whatever works for your dog

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    Senior Member sassafras's Avatar
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Iceweasel View Post
    Dogs are bred to be dogs but I do not believe their basic anatomy has evolved. If you bred humans to be very short, very blond and very heavy boned, they would still be human and have the same system. Microevolution can happen fairly quickly but macroevolution is a different matter.
    Except that there was a study that came out either last year or late in 2012 that showed that dogs do have an increased amount of the digestive enzymes needed to digest carbohydrates as compared to wolves. There's no reason to believe that co-evolving alongside us didn't include evolving the ability to use new foodstuffs.
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    Junior Member peterinwa's Avatar
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    When I got my first dog and went to my first puppy class, I didn't know we were supposed to bring treats and I had to borrow them. But all anyone had brought were tiny slices of cheese and salami. I wasn't about to start my puppy eating that!

    So I started out using only kibble for treats, and to keep the quantity down I both split it with a pill splitter and took if from their daily meals.

    Over time I learned how much they loved veggies, and started using green peas and little pieces of lettuce and such for treats. If the doctor was wrong and they only pass through their bodies, then perhaps they are the perfect treats as they neither introduce bad things into their system nor make them fat.

    Whatever, I'm sure they are better than cheese, salami, and most of the dog treats people buy. (Though I am sure there are some healthy ones... wouldn't know... never looked.)

    BTW, good discussion!

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    Senior Member RabbleFox's Avatar
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    ^Cheese and salami are used because they are high value. As they are just treats, they are fine to give in small amounts. Not all dogs find kibble rewarding. Pepper really could care less about his kibble. His favorite treat is cheese. That is used for learning new behaviors or in highly distracting environments. Merlin is a nut for any food (except veggies, he won't eat them raw...) so I use a combination of kibbles (samples are my best friend!) and dog treats to reward him.

    Taking kibble from daily meals is a good way to train dogs IMO but only if your dog finds kibbles rewarding!

    Merlin is being fed partially raw right now. I am afraid I won't get the ratios right so his kibbles are there to ensure he gets all his nutrients. I've never heard if vitamin E deficiency but I've also never thought about giving my dog 8 capsules of fish oil. O.o

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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
    Except that there was a study that came out either last year or late in 2012 that showed that dogs do have an increased amount of the digestive enzymes needed to digest carbohydrates as compared to wolves. There's no reason to believe that co-evolving alongside us didn't include evolving the ability to use new foodstuffs.
    Thank you. I didn't even know there was a study to be quite honest. I simply thought about it critically and thought about what I had read from both sides of the debate and came to the conclusion that dogs' systems are not exactly like wolves'. I do feed Roxie raw but it's more of a treat than a staple. She mostly gets Honest Kitchen, Royal Canin and Pure Balance with the occasional canned. I've heard good and bad things about Royal Canin, but more good than bad anecdotally speaking, so I figured I'd give it a shot and I'm happy with it. I split it with the Pure Balance to cut the cost.

  15. #33
    Senior Member Kathyy's Avatar
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayota View Post
    Thank you. I didn't even know there was a study to be quite honest. I simply thought about it critically and thought about what I had read from both sides of the debate and came to the conclusion that dogs' systems are not exactly like wolves'. I do feed Roxie raw but it's more of a treat than a staple. She mostly gets Honest Kitchen, Royal Canin and Pure Balance with the occasional canned. I've heard good and bad things about Royal Canin, but more good than bad anecdotally speaking, so I figured I'd give it a shot and I'm happy with it. I split it with the Pure Balance to cut the cost.
    This one. http://news.sciencemag.org/plants-an...-domestication

    Max seemed like he might have more copies of the amylase gene as he did fine on kibble but Ginger actually seems to digest stuff like raw celery and fallen dried up apples she finds in the backyard.

    To me this shows some dogs have a lesser ability to digest carbs than others. It may be worth your while to try a low carb diet if you have a dog with digestive issues.

  16. #34
    Member Iceweasel's Avatar
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayota View Post
    She got bones, organs, pretty much everything required. I don't feed her raw veggies as a staple, that would be ludicrous. I don't even eat raw veggies, they taste awful.
    Wait, what? I only eat veggies raw and do so everyday. Cooking destroys nutrition. It tastes better to me, I do use extra virgin olive oil and a bit of seasoning though.

    Quote Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
    Except that there was a study that came out either last year or late in 2012 that showed that dogs do have an increased amount of the digestive enzymes needed to digest carbohydrates as compared to wolves. There's no reason to believe that co-evolving alongside us didn't include evolving the ability to use new foodstuffs.
    That's assuming that mankind had canine pets from the beginning, whenever that was. Did they include the evidence for that or just assume so? And did they demonstrate how man's digestive system changed? Everything I've read says otherwise, in fact, many attribute many problems today to not eating what our ancestors did. I'm calling bs on that study because dogs are still built like carnivors, their teeth are for ripping and tearing. They chew to get pieces small enough to swallow and do not have the enzymes in saliva like we do to start breaking down food. I'd be happy to see the evidence that says otherwise as it's contrary to everything I've read.

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    Senior Member gingerkid's Avatar
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Iceweasel View Post
    Wait, what? I only eat veggies raw and do so everyday. Cooking destroys nutrition. It tastes better to me, I do use extra virgin olive oil and a bit of seasoning though.

    That's assuming that mankind had canine pets from the beginning, whenever that was. Did they include the evidence for that or just assume so? And did they demonstrate how man's digestive system changed? Everything I've read says otherwise, in fact, many attribute many problems today to not eating what our ancestors did. I'm calling bs on that study because dogs are still built like carnivors, their teeth are for ripping and tearing. They chew to get pieces small enough to swallow and do not have the enzymes in saliva like we do to start breaking down food. I'd be happy to see the evidence that says otherwise as it's contrary to everything I've read.
    Nothing that you posted has anything to do with the study that Kathy linked to, which showed using various molecular/genetic techniques that dogs have more copies of the gene responsible for amylase, the enzyme that breaks down starches, compared to wolves. They found that dogs had many, many more copies of the gene (4-36 copies) than wolves had (2-4 copies). However, since having copies of a gene doesn't necessarily translate into increased functionality, the researchers also tested for the actual enzyme and found that dogs had nearly two to three-fold increased amylase enzyme activity compared to wolves.

    You can read the original peer-reviewed study here, if you don't trust news outlet reporting of science. Of course, you're welcome to your own opinions, but the great thing about science is that it is true regardless... It is also clear that you don't really have a clear understanding of how evolution works. When a species evolves, it is one piece - one gene! - at a time, not all at once. And your assumption that the dentition would change along with enzyme activity isn't logical, from an evolutionary standpoint. Dentition, which is determined by hundreds of different genes and is partially determined by skull shape, takes a LONG time (like, millions of years) and extreme selective pressure to change, compared to enzyme activity which is regulated by a handful of genes at the most and has relatively low cost. If the dog produces extra amylase, so what? Dogs can still eat grains with carnivorous dentition, but they wouldn't be able to eat meat as efficiently with omnivorous dentition - the evolutionary trade off for the change in dentition would be to great and potentially detrimental, where as enzymes are quick and cheap to produce and don't affect the dog's ability to eat meat when it comes along.
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    Senior Member Laurelin's Avatar
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    I use cheese and salami for treats. Pepperoni was my jackpot treat this week. We need very very high value rewards in agility, especially for things like doing the teeter or other obstacles that dogs could potentially find scary. There's nothing wrong with giving your dogs a little junk food here and there.

    I can use kibble for things just like shaping around the house and stuff like that. But in agility we need something non crunchy (because it takes longer for them to eat it) and high value.

    My dogs spit out veggies.
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  19. #37
    Senior Member taquitos's Avatar
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
    I use cheese and salami for treats. Pepperoni was my jackpot treat this week. We need very very high value rewards in agility, especially for things like doing the teeter or other obstacles that dogs could potentially find scary. There's nothing wrong with giving your dogs a little junk food here and there.

    I can use kibble for things just like shaping around the house and stuff like that. But in agility we need something non crunchy (because it takes longer for them to eat it) and high value.

    My dogs spit out veggies.
    Same here Laurelin lol Meeko often carries veggies (if I give him a bigger treat) and rips/chews them up, or hides them in the bed, but he doesn't eat it lol!

  20. #38
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by gingerkid View Post
    Nothing that you posted has anything to do with the study that Kathy linked to, which showed using various molecular/genetic techniques that dogs have more copies of the gene responsible for amylase, the enzyme that breaks down starches, compared to wolves. They found that dogs had many, many more copies of the gene (4-36 copies) than wolves had (2-4 copies). However, since having copies of a gene doesn't necessarily translate into increased functionality, the researchers also tested for the actual enzyme and found that dogs had nearly two to three-fold increased amylase enzyme activity compared to wolves.

    You can read the original peer-reviewed study here, if you don't trust news outlet reporting of science. Of course, you're welcome to your own opinions, but the great thing about science is that it is true regardless... It is also clear that you don't really have a clear understanding of how evolution works. When a species evolves, it is one piece - one gene! - at a time, not all at once. And your assumption that the dentition would change along with enzyme activity isn't logical, from an evolutionary standpoint. Dentition, which is determined by hundreds of different genes and is partially determined by skull shape, takes a LONG time (like, millions of years) and extreme selective pressure to change, compared to enzyme activity which is regulated by a handful of genes at the most and has relatively low cost. If the dog produces extra amylase, so what? Dogs can still eat grains with carnivorous dentition, but they wouldn't be able to eat meat as efficiently with omnivorous dentition - the evolutionary trade off for the change in dentition would be to great and potentially detrimental, where as enzymes are quick and cheap to produce and don't affect the dog's ability to eat meat when it comes along.
    Save your chest pounding. I asked for when the domestication happened, how does that have nothing to do with the article? We all know wolves and dogs are not the same so it isn't surprising they test a bit differently. Everything I've read says they cannot break them down much if at all so they don't get much nutrition from them. If you have evidence to the contrary then fine, let's see it. Post the portion of the study that proves it instead of the chest thumping. Maybe they will evolve to completely break down raw broccoli someday, but that wasn't the question.

  21. #39
    Senior Member gingerkid's Avatar
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Iceweasel View Post
    Save your chest pounding. I asked for when the domestication happened, how does that have nothing to do with the article? We all know wolves and dogs are not the same so it isn't surprising they test a bit differently. Everything I've read says they cannot break them down much if at all so they don't get much nutrition from them. If you have evidence to the contrary then fine, let's see it. Post the portion of the study that proves it instead of the chest thumping. Maybe they will evolve to completely break down raw broccoli someday, but that wasn't the question.
    Domestication by people is just an possible explanation for why dogs have adapted to digest grains better than wolves, it doesn't negate the fact that the adaption occurred. Especially considering that the adaptation easily could've started before domestication, while they were just hanging around camps and scavenging off of human left-overs, but before they were actually tamed/raise by humans.

    I'm just going to ignore the "chest pounding" remark, because it came from someone who doesn't want to do their own reading. I should also not have to do your research for you, especially since I provided you with the source material, but I'm a nice person and believe in the burden of proof, so here you go:

    Whereas humans have acquired amylase activity in the saliva22 via an ancient duplication of the pancreatic amylase gene, dogs only express amylase in the pancreas23. In dogs the AMY2B gene, encoding the alpha-2B-amylase, resides in a 600-kbCDR on chromosome 6 with Z(HP) andZ(FST) scores of24.60 and 7.16, respectively (Figs 1 and 2a). Interestingly, an 8-kb sequence spanning the AMY2B locus showed a several-fold increase in aligned read depth in dog relative to wolf (Fig. 2b), suggestive of a copy number change. Formal comparisons of regional and local pool coverage, and wolf and dog coverage (Methods), respectively, also suggest a substantial increase in copy numbers in all dog pools compared to wolf at this locus (Supplementary Discussion, section 5).

    We confirmed this CNV by quantifying AMY2B copy numbers in 136 dogs and 35 wolves (Supplementary Table 11) using real-time quantitative PCR (qPCR). Whereas all wolves tested carried only 2 copies (2N52), diploid copy numbers in dog ranged from 4 to 30 (P,0.001, Wilcoxon) (Fig. 2c), corresponding to a remarkable 7.4-fold average increase in dog AMY2B copy numbers. To assess whether this change correspond to a difference in amylase activity, we first compared AMY2B gene expression in pancreas from dog (n59) and wolf (n512) and noted a 28-fold higher average expression in dog (P,0.001, Wilcoxon, Fig. 2d). We then quantified amylase activity in frozen serum (Fig. 2e) and found a 4.7-fold higher activity in dog (9.6–18.4 mkat l21 (n512)) relative to wolf (1.4–4.3 mkat l21 (n513)) (P,0.001, Wilcoxon). Similar results were obtained in comparisons of a limited number of fresh samples (Supplementary Tables 12 and 13).
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  22. #40
    Senior Member Avery's Avatar
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    Re: I almost killed my dog with fish oil tablets! :(

    I've always been told/read/thought dogs were omnivorous. They need more meat but they eat and digest other things. I haven't studied it of course, but it took me by surprise that people here were calling them carnivores.

    Mumble love fruits and veggies. He goes especially crazy for lettuce and broccoli.

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