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Off-leash dog vs uncomfortable leashed dog? Who is in the wrong?

11K views 180 replies 22 participants last post by  petpeeve 
#1 ·
I’d like to explain the situation and be as fair as possible to both sides to get opinions.

I live in a gated community of about 200 homes. We share a decent sized park area in the middle of our community. This park has a playground area, and large grass area (about 200 feet by 200 feet).

One person has a dog that fetches a ball off-leash in the park. This dog appears to be well behaved. The owner appears to have the dog under control.

The second person walks his dog on leash. This owner’s dog barks and appears uncomfortable with the off-leash dog running and chasing the ball in the park.

Both owners keep their distance from the other. The owner with the off-leash dog tends to stay on the other side of the park as the owner with the leashed dog.

The owner with the leashed dog wants to walk around the park, but can’t with the off-leash dog running and fetching the ball with his owner.
Is there a problem here? If so, who is at fault? Should the owner with the off-leash dog respect the fact the leashed dog is clearly uncomfortable to be around an off-leash dog? Or should the owner of the leashed dog let the off-leash dog run in the park even if that makes things difficult for his own dog?

I’d love to get some opinions.

Thanks!
 
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#3 ·
This. If dogs are supposed to be on leash, the person having the dog off-leash is in the wrong. If there's no law, I guess in a perfect world, whoever is there first should have 'priority'... It would be rude from the owner of the off-leash dog to start throwing the ball towards the uncomfortable dog, but if the off-leash dog was there first, you'd think the other person would walk their dog elsewhere (it's what I would do at least, considering that my dog is the same way).
 
#4 ·
First, I am ASSUMING NO RULES ARE BROKEN by being off leash or the person with the off leash dog has permission by whatever means.

If the person tossing the ball has a dog totally focused and under control no one is "at fault" here. The leashed dog is not being approached and (if the park is large enough) they should be able to walk their dog. If it is a tiny park then he who is there first has the park. Again, if the off leash dog does not approach or interact with the leashed dog then the leashed dog owner has some work to do with their dog. If the unleashed dog's owner sees the other person, and the park is tiny then the courteous thing would be to say, "I will be done in a few minutes" and then follow through.

Before my recent move I had access to a 50 acre town park that had a leash law. I trained my dog there both on and off leash but walked my dog on the trail on leash. I had permission (the local police had their HQ in the park and often would come and watch me train). My dog NEVER bothered another dog when off leash. She was WORKING and we stayed far away from other people.

Well, one day I was working my dog in a heeling pattern (off leash). I then put her in a long down. We were WELL AWAY (as in 200 feet) from anyone else with a dog and not bothering anyone and the park was vacant other than the kids playground.

This guy shows up with a large black dog.. looked like a Newfie cross. My dog was lying down and focused on me. This guy had his dog on leash and was 200 feet away. His dog was reactive and no where near us. He took a walk with his dog (just under a mile around the perimeter of the park on a paved trail). I continued to work with my dog and he came back to his car. I was about done training and had just put my dog's leash on. Again.. we were about 200 feet apart (or more) and this guy starts yelling at me because my dog had been off leash. He told me it was 'State Law' that all dogs have to be leashed (this is not true). I just ignored him.

He went to the police station and complained. I could hear it (summer-windows open). The police asked him if my dog had approached him or bothered him in any way. He said No, but it was just "wrong." I will never forget the response from the fellow on duty, "Sir, your dog was lunging and barking on leash and you had little control. She comes here and trains all the time. She and her dog never bother anyone and her dogs are trained. If you spent as much time training your dog as she does her two we would not be having this conversation. Good day."
 
#10 ·
He went to the police station and complained. I could hear it (summer-windows open). The police asked him if my dog had approached him or bothered him in any way. He said No, but it was just "wrong." I will never forget the response from the fellow on duty, "Sir, your dog was lunging and barking on leash and you had little control. She comes here and trains all the time. She and her dog never bother anyone and her dogs are trained. If you spent as much time training your dog as she does her two we would not be having this conversation. Good day."
Love this!!!!!
 
#6 ·
I do kinda feel bad for that guy though, my dog is a terror on leash when she sees another dog, which is extremely embarrassing lol. And so far even with treats I haven't managed to get her attention to stop her from barking when we see other dogs on walks... so sometimes it's not always that easy.

But again, if I was in that situation and just wanted to walk my dog in peace, I would avoid the area where there is usually another dog in the first place.
 
#7 ·
It depends on if there are leash laws for that park. If the park does not require dogs to be on-leash, then the off-leash dog owner is fine and the on-leash dog owner should find a different place to walk their dog if it is making their dog uncomfortable, or work on training the dog to just ignore other dogs.

If the park has leash laws and requires dogs to be on-leash at all times, then the off-leash dog owner is wrong and should have his dog on a leash, regardless of how well trained the dog is.
 
#9 ·
I tried to post this a few days ago, but as a new member if needed to be approved. I just thought it didn't post so I posted the same issue on another forum.

The general reply has been that it comes down to the local leash law.

Our private community park does have a city leash ordinance posted so it's clear if the leashed dog owner wanted to push things he could.

I am actually the owner of the off-leash dog.


Let me further explain. My dog is VERY well behaved and is ONLY concerned with playing fetch with me and getting some energy out running in the park. It's her favorite thing in the world and I know that no one else in the park will ever be bothered by my dog running up to them or bothering them in any way (other than her just playing fetch).



At times, there are other off-leash dogs and even on occasion they will run up to us while she is playing fetch and she pays them no mind. Kids use the park at times as well playing ball, frisbee, tag, flying drones, riding hoverboards...you name it and she doesn't bother anyone. She is intensely focused on me as she doesn't want to miss the opportunity if I happen to throw the ball 



I also incorporate training into our game of fetch. I will have her sit or down (with an implied stay), then throw the ball. She will stay seated or laying down and wait for my release command before chasing down the ball. She then immediately brings it straight back and sits by my side. I will even sometimes release her and as she is SPRINTING to get the ball, I will recall her and she will turn and recall in the middle of chasing down the ball instead of retrieving it. Other times I will call out for her to sit or down in the middle of chasing the ball and she will. Then she will wait for my release command to continue getting the ball. I say all this to show that any reasonable person seeing her play fetch would know she is very well trained and has an incredibly strong recall (even while obsessed with sprinting after a ball). 



People that frequent the park know us and know how well behaved she is. We get compliments all the time. The other owner I'm talking about, keeps his distance. He is more than welcome to walk anywhere in the park. He can even walk right past us if he'd like and should feel more than comfortable my dog won't pay him or his dog any attention (as other owners walk past us with their dogs all the time).



It is his dog that is visibly uncomfortable with my dog running around even though we are a good 100+ feet away. His dog starts lunging at the end of the leash and will sometimes bark. In my opinion it doesn't look like a dog that is excited and wants to play. It appears more like a dog that feels it is in danger. This is why out of respect for his dog, I usually just have my dog remain in a sit or down close to me when I see the other owner with his dog approaching the park area. I feel this is a considerate thing to do. The other owner will wait a few minutes looking in our direction and then just usually turn and leave once he figures his dog won't calm down and I haven't left. 



I have seen the other dog have the same type of reaction to others as well. This other dog will lung at the end of his leash and bark at other off-leash and on-leash dogs and even kids riding by on bikes even from a distance.



I should also note that my dog was trained on the remote collar and I always have it on her while in the park. I only have this on in case of some really unexpected emergency. I have not used it in several months and even back then it was for training purposes at low levels. I've yet to need it for an emergency recall, but it is there just in case. 



With all this in mind, does this change any minds? Or should I still simply follow the city leash ordinance even though it's sort of clear it's not something our private community as a whole cares much about.
 
#29 ·
Yesterday I watched a live FB public broadcast with Mike Ritland (Trikos International; started the Warrier Dog Foundation and former Navy Seal as well as creator of Team Dog Online Training and 3 times NY Times Best Seller). Several people asked how to fix "reactive on leash dogs." His answer was the same as mine and he repeated it over and over!

The issue is not the reactivity, it is the lack of focus to the handler that is the issue. If you get FOCUS you can diffuse or eliminate reactivity. If you don't have FOCUS it is YOUR FAULT and not the Dog's Fault.

I am reading here responses from several people with leash reactive pet dogs. You are NOT responsible for the OTHER dogs. You CANNOT control other dogs or owners, even those who break laws. ALL you can do is control YOURSELF and YOUR DOG. Period.

If your dog is bouncing around like a nut at the end of the leash when there are other dogs around, that is ON YOU and it means you have not trained well enough, long enough or seriously enough. ANYTHING else is not a "reason." It is an excuse!

Leash reactive dogs attract attention to themselves and can actually increase reactivity and attraction FROM other dogs (especially those not trained to FOCUS when asked).

In reading this, helping people with pet dogs and so forth the issue is not the dogs. It is NEVER the dogs. It is ALWAYS ALWAYS our fault if our dogs do not behave well.
 
#11 · (Edited)
The bottom line and actual reality is, no matter how well behaved/trained your dog is:

A law is a law and if there is a problem - cute little stories from other posters aside - you can be ticketed and fined. If there is an altercation with another dog, you will be liable, fully and completely, just because your dog is not on leash.

So, no, my mind here does not change.

I will say freely and admit freely that I often use places in my community to let my dogs off leash that are technically on leash areas. HOWEVER, the second my dog becomes a 'problem' for someone - whether they're doing anything wrong or not - they go on leash. That may another dog being fearful, another dog acting aggressively, a child who is afraid or dog phobic, my dog presenting a distraction or challenge to a child, dog, or adult. If my dog is creating ANY kind of issue for ANYONE, the dog goes on leash.

Because I AM BREAKING THE LAW.

A dog lunging and barking at the end of a leash is not against the law.. The dog can do that, in public or otherwise, as long as it is controlled enough (even just by the leash and distance) not to hurt someone. It can be reported to authorities and there is no fall out because while obnoxious it's not doing anything wrong.

My dog being off leash is against the law. It can't do that. It has no right to do that. It has no right to be there doing that. Ergo the moment it becomes even remotely inconvenient: dog gets leashed. Because no matter, again, whether the dog does anything *else* wrong, or is perfectly behaved, we're doing something illegal. THere's a problem that can be reported.
 
#12 ·
Yep.

I have very carefully made note of all the local leash laws, regulations and private property rules (private as in admission fee parks or quasi-public spaces like commercial areas, not private like some individuals property). I whenever possible I go to on-leash only areas because I do not want any chance of encountering an off leash dog who is legally off leash. Don't really want to encounter any off leash dog but unfortunately, there are people who may or may not have "complete" control over their dogs and choose not to properly leash up.

You can't bring back a dead dog from that one time the dog disobeys and runs into the wrong on-leash dog. You can't fix the problems a fight can cause for the other person and their dog. Breed laws being what they are, my pit bull looking dog will most likely be found at fault regardless of us being the ones obeying the law. Yes, an actual court case (in another state) involved a loose dog and a leashed bully breed walking with its human and the bully was found at fault. That's even aside from general hassles and public perception problems etc.

BTW, do a few searches and you will find this topic has been soundly and thoroughly debated here before. There will always be a few people who fall back on the "my dog is well trained" but honestly, I don't care if someone's dog is actually a transformed human and speaks five languages and won't step a foot away from the human with him-- because I do NOT know that and for our safety have to assume that the dog is an average dog who will sometimes ignore the human and run over to greet a strange dog and yelling "He's friendly" 100 feet behind your rushing dog does not make the situation safe.

I also do not trust remote collars. In some places, a remote collar is legally a leash but personally I think those laws are not understanding both technology and dog behavior. Heck, just over Christmas break we had an issue with that. My father was walking Eva (on leash, on public sidewalk) and someone's small dog wearing an invisible fence collar ran at them past the "fence" line. My father yelled at the owner's kid to grab their dog. Kid stood there. Adult owner finally picked up their dog and then yelled at my father for hollaring at the kid and berated him for having a dog that reacted to a strange dog running up on her and "Oh, battery on the collar must be dead"

Physical fences fail, leashes can break. But if a leash breaks, you are still OK legally because you were following the law.
 
#13 ·
If there is a leash law, you are in the wrong. Doesn't matter how well trained your dog is. Maybe that person frequents that park because he is trying to train his dog to be more comfortable around other dogs, and he does it there because he assumes everyone is following the law. That person doesn't know how well trained your dog is, that your dog probably won't bother him. That person with the reactive dog is probably feeling rather anxious every single time he sees your dog off leash. I've been that person before with the reactive dog who I was trying to train, and I went to places where I knew there would be controlled dogs, only to find that someone wasn't following the law. Those off leash dogs have run up to me more often than they have remained with their owners and ignored me. Seeing off leash dogs caused me to grow anxious, distracting me from the task at hand.

I know that none of that will change your mind, and you'll probably still use that park for off leash activities, but at least consider what other people and dogs might be going through, and that perhaps they go to that park because they think that everyone will follow the law and they won't encounter off-leash dogs.
 
#14 ·
It falls to a few factors, leash laws being the biggest factor.

Have you tried speaking to the other person and finding out there feelings in the matter?

Have you tried asking there general schedule? (Maybe find time in which you can avoid each other).

200 x 200 is a pretty small area really.
 
#16 ·
Yep. I'm on the other side in this scenario; my dogs are always leashed because they are reactive and I am a responsible owner who does not want them running up to other dogs and getting into fights. We avoid areas where dogs are allowed off-leash, because those areas are not for us. I get very annoyed when dogs are running off-leash in leash-only areas, even if the dogs are well-trained and won't approach us, because A) I don't KNOW that, and I can't know that until I get close enough to test it, and I'm not going to risk my dogs' safety; B) my dogs get worked up at the sight of a loose dog running anyway, thanks to some bad experiences with loose dogs rushing us in the past, which puts them on edge for the rest of our walk; and C) my dogs and I have to change our route, often crossing a road or going well out of our way, just because someone else is breaking the law, and I hate that.

As far as training goes, I've been working on "look at that" type stuff for their whole lives, and every time they start to get better, some loose dog rushes them and sets them back. It's like clockwork.
 
#17 ·
Thanks for all the input.

Keep in mind this isn't your typical park. This is a smaller private community park. It's in the middle of our gated community. If it matters, I would never go to a public park and let me dog run off-leash. The difference in my mind (and I very well could be wrong...and why I came for opinions), is that we all pretty much know who uses the park with their dogs and how those dogs are. He has seen my dog plenty of times and sees how well behaved she is while we are training. He has seen other kids and dogs run up to us and that my dog pays them no attention. He has seen other people walk their dogs right past us and my dog does not bother them. Some leashed dogs walking by even react and the owners usually say THEY are sorry because they know my dog and know she only cares about paying attention to me and the ball :)

My dog isn't just running all over the park. If there is anyone else at the park, she is either by my side, or on a line to retrieve her ball (away from others) and bring it right back. When I see this particular owner approaching with his dog approaching, I will out of courtesy for his fearful dog, put mine in a sit or down (with implied stay) next to me.

I can understand completely the owners with fearful dogs not knowing whether or not an unknown off-leash dog is safe to be around or not. I can't imagine this is the case with him. He has seen enough to know my dog could care less about his (or others) and would never go up to other dogs while we are playing her favorite game that is 100x more interesting to her than another dog :)
 
#18 · (Edited)
Thanks for all the input.

Keep in mind this isn't your typical park. This is a smaller private community park. It's in the middle of our gated community.
[....]

My dog isn't just running all over the park. If there is anyone else at the park, she is either by my side, or on a line to retrieve her ball (away from others) and bring it right back. When I see this particular owner approaching with his dog approaching, I will out of courtesy for his fearful dog, put mine in a sit or down (with implied stay) next to me.

I can understand completely the owners with fearful dogs not knowing whether or not an unknown off-leash dog is safe to be around or not. I can't imagine this is the case with him. He has seen enough to know my dog could care less about his (or others) and would never go up to other dogs while we are playing her favorite game that is 100x more interesting to her than another dog :)
I'd actually have MORE of an expectation of being able to walk without worrying about off-leash dogs in a gated community on a private park. I'd presumably be paying ($$) for the privilege of having an open space that is legally on-leash and is enforced. Especially since most HOA type rules are enforced more strictly than the average city law is enforced.

I've had to walk past dogs in a nice "down stay" in public parks with my dog(s) on leash. Two things stand out to me-- one is that my more perceptive dog can and does differentiate between a dog in a sit without a leash and a dog with a leash, he does get a little confused by retractable leashes which are near invisible, and does get more on edge without a leash. This is before I might notice the difference myself. The other is that I have had dogs break their stay and come at us. A leash at least gives me an expectation of 30-60 seconds of control even if the dog were then strong enough to pull the owner around or yank the leash from his hands. It is starting room that doesn't happen with no leash at all and if the owner drops the leash, it is something for another person to step on or grab at to help us out whereas fully off-leash means nothing in terms of a stranger assisting.

I do not trust strangers' dogs off leash. Plain and simple. Cannot. And every encounter with a loose dog is a massive setback for anyone trying to train a reactive dog.

(BTW- it is "couldN'T care less" cause well, what you wrote is more often the case from what I have seen)

Edit-- I just now thought about what you called a large area. 200 by 200 is not large. 200 feet is a distance easily covered by a fit large dog in a few seconds. My yard is about 175 feet deep from door to back fence. Eva has run that fast enough jump from the door to catch a squirrel that was half across the yard before it got to the fence.
 
#22 ·
When Mikee is on-leash, he has a ferocious bark and strains to get at other dogs. Most dogs recognize a plea for attention and play [Mikee is still learning manners.], and I will ask the owner if their dog is OK, letting the dogs interact, if their dog is not fearful. But, how my dog acts is my responsibility, on leash or off.

If you are in a dog park where off-leash is permissible and the norm, then the owner of on-leash reactive dog has the responsibility [ and most of the liability if your dog does not engage.] A gated community has written rules - if leashed dogs are the rule in the park, then you are breaking the rules. If your dog is on-leash, and the other dog barks at yours or tries to attack, I imagine that situation is covered in the rules. But, if the leashed dog attacks your off leash dog, or is disturbed by your off-leash dog, then the on-leash owner can report you for an infraction. Most authorities don't worry about minor infractions, until someone complains, and then full penalties can apply.
 
#23 ·
The biggest matter I do see and not sure if anyone have said it or not.

What happends if you run into a person with a reactive dog on a flimsy retractable leash and it bites or attacks your dog?

Your biggest issue is going to be there dog was on a leash and your dog was not so you did not have control of your dog.

While it may not be fair at times, you must always put your dogs safety and welfare above all else.

As a giant breed owner trust me some people will put there dogs in bad situations and totally blame the rest of the world.
 
#24 ·
Around here a leash is 6' long and a retractable is the same as off leash, not allowed. I will use a retractable but it is locked and short when people are close by. You know how long those things are, stay out of range.

I'd welcome working my reactive dog around the off leash well behaved dog but I'd work outside the fence. Things happen.
 
#25 ·
Definitely the off leash dog is 'in the wrong'.
I too have 'broken the law' and used non off leash areas to have my dogs off leash. But they are not 'public' places. One is a utility corridor that people use as an off leash park, but it is MUCH quieter than an off leash park and I try to go during slow time where I'm hopefully by myself, or there's only one other person/dog and I can stay on the far side away from them. The other place was a 'construction' field (was cleared and 'rolled'/flattened to dirt, but no construction had started yet) where no one was going to be hanging out or walking through.
However I would have been in the wrong if there was ever an issue with a person or on leash dog because I was the one breaking the law.
 
#26 ·
I get what you are saying about this guy "knowing your dog". BUT, as an owner of a leash reactive dog, I also would still be a bit nervous walking by. Because all it takes is one time.

Anytime I encounter an off-leash dog while walking Quill on leash, I'm going to be more aware, even if they seem to be 100% under control. Because with one slip up, one time of another dog running up to him, even if he doesn't DO anything physically to the other dog (which, he has never done anything -- generally the minute they are within reach, he greets them the way he should), he still "slipped up" and started barking and lunging, which sets us back in his reactivity training. And let me tell you, reactivity training is a long, grueling battle. We've been working with Quill for a year now, and we still can't get too close to dogs, bikes, runners. And the people who have let their dogs run up to my reactive dog are lucky he ISN'T the reactive dog who will do harm when they get too close -- because they would be in the wrong, since we were always in places with leash laws, and I'm always doing my part to keep him at a distance where they shouldn't have to worry about their dogs safety either.

I would much prefer to work on his reactivity in a place that has leash laws, where I can put him on a leash, expect other dogs to be on a leash, and know that 100% there should be no chance of a dog running up to us and setting him back. It allows me to be more calm about it, which in turn helps him be more calm. It may seem like a good opportunity to train, but I would disagree if it is a place where leashes are required. So, as others have said, if the law says to leash the dog, I would say leash the dog.
 
#27 ·
leash law wins, and if the person complains to the HOA because they do pay for the privilege of living in the community and expectation for use of the park guess they have a right to write you up. We had a dog park and if you went there at off hours of use you could run around the area or trails off leash but as soon as you seen other dogs everyone would leash up. They closed the park and then got some sort of officer patrol to hand out tickets because of complaints and incidents. And like it was said previously.. maybe someone will use your dog for training because their dog is DA... people think that way. That off leash dog areas are for training their problem dogs and bring them there for that reason. As a dog owner its good manners to leash your dog when others come into the space 200x200 is not that big my chain link training area is 200 x 130... you take up a lot of space playing fetch I would find it a bit rude
 
#28 ·
The very moment I see another owner has their dog on an ecollar, I completely lose faith in that person's training abilities and the level of control they actually have. Regardless of how well behaved their dog may appear to be.

Put aside your sense of entitlement, stop flaunting the law, and stop dangling a carrot in the face of fate. Leash your dog. Or find a more appropriate place to tempt disaster, where there's no chance the outcome can affect other people and their dogs.
 
#30 ·
FWIW I had this control off leash on my dog without a prong collar and without an E Collar.

There are places where I hike and it is legal to have an off leash dog (most State Parks, State Forests and Forest Preserve) and the ONLY stipulation is the dog be "under control." Then we use the E collar just in case there is something SO distracting that the dog does not hear me (there was a study on this and they truly do NOT hear if they are that distracted). Then an e collar can break the distraction so they hear and recall. It is rarely used. This is a remote setting with few people and I am not asking for focus so the dog can just be a dog.

You should be MORE nervous of that off leash dog and the owner begging it to recall than a dog off leash with a button and immediate response to recall.
 
#31 ·
I wasn't going to post here since others have succinctly stated the obvious (leash laws, etc.), but I do want to chime in since reactivity was brought up. Reactivity is most commonly a result of fear or frustration, but can also be perpetuated if a dog has a medical issue (such as pain, or chronic anxiety). Certainly training can help. But it is not the only thing that matters. Really, sometimes it isn't the owner's fault at all. And placing all blame on the owners of reactive dogs, as if they 'simply' haven't trained long or hard enough, are making excuses, or whatever... Is a little condescending and quite frankly dragging folks through the mud when they are already dealing with a very common and emotionally exhausting issue. I do not have a reactive dog but I work with owners who do all the time (it is the #1 issue we get for private lessons).

Second, "(there was a study on this and they truly do NOT hear if they are that distracted)" I would love to see this study if you can post a link!

Third, whereas I won't disagree that some people have successfully trained their dogs to come when called using an e-collar, I have a multitude of stories of dogs with e-collars who unsuccessfully performed the desired behavior. The ones that stick out to me are the dog that ran up to my dog-selective dog and started a fight, despite wearing an e-collar and owners yelling in the background, and the dog who would not come when called and the owner (on horseback) stimmed the dog after he did not listen to the verbal cue. The dog screamed and flinched, then went back to his owner. I have also seen dogs wearing e-collars display very abnormal body language when greeting other dogs. A lot of stiff bodies, tight lips, whale eye... as if they anticipate that they are about to be stimmed. I imagine that the dog who started the fight with my dog has an altered perception of dogs and proper dog greetings due to his e-collar training. And I know that not all e-collar training looks like this. But one must understand that these products are available right off the shelves with no further instruction. What I have seen the most, from average owners, is they have inadvertently taught their dog to ignore verbal cues and respond only to the stim. The tool becomes the only way to get a dog to comply. I am not speaking theoretically and these are all real complaints and anecdotes from owners. Again, I understand that not all e-collar training looks like this. But I wouldn't sugarcoat this tool and make it sound like anyone who has an e-collar has perfect recall at the touch of a button.
 
#34 ·
Thank you! I always felt so terribly embarrassed when Ralphie acted out. It wasn't my fault, he came to me that way. And it was hard, and exhausting, and I know some people have it even worse than I did! I'm not a bad trainer, and he's not a bad dog, just young and dealing with poor socialization. It's like a slap the face when people insinuate that I did something wrong or am not working with him hard enough. Because I did. Every day. And now he gets compliments on the street for behaving while walking past people and dogs.
 
#33 ·
There are plenty of places reactive dogs don't belong, can't go, and shouldn't go. Public spaces with leash laws are not those places.

If you want to find a space to let your dog off leash, you find a space that allows dogs off leash (or don't - but be considerate of the fact that you're breaking the law and make sure the only person who's dog and training you are risking is yours, and leash up when in the presence of other people or dogs).

And if they bring their reactive dog into those spaces, on or off leash, by all means come rant about how they shouldn't be there.

But in public areas where all dogs should be on leash and the law says they must be is exactly where you should EXPECT those dogs to be, and where those dogs have every right to be, and is where they SHOULD be being trained.
 
#38 ·
I hear you Lillith. And I hear people say the same thing all the time! Honestly, even though I don't have a classically reactive dog, Soro still isn't good with dogs and has reacted to dogs who are unlawfully off leash, or dogs who could not be called away (and he is always under control and right next to me in dog situations). I know how it feels to have people say nasty things about me and my dog even though they were the ones who lacked discipline and empathy. And I always bite my tongue in real-life situations and respond with just the facts ("There are leash laws in this area.") since... trainer, reputation, reputation of larger organization, and all :D

So I get it, too.
 
#40 ·
Oh, yeah! Fortunately, Ralphie likes dogs, but he DOES NOT like it when strange dogs rush him, and has put on a show before. And then you get strange looks. Um, no, your dog rushed my dog in an area with leash laws. When he was younger, he would react to dogs off leash..in public park spaces that had leash laws...and I would get strange looks. Sometimes those dogs bothered us, sometimes they didn't, but come on, even if your dog is well trained that does not mean you own the place or the law doesn't apply to you.
 
#39 ·
The OP was asking about off leash dog that is NOT running up to other people, is totally focused on his handler, is not bothering anyone and is (apparently) not breaking any rules.

Off leash dogs that run up to other dogs and people and are clearly causing issues and not recalling etc. is not what the OP has.

That off leash dog that runs up to other dogs is unacceptable. That dog is an accident looking for a place to happen and should not be off leash EVER regardless of the leash law being in place or not and this is (again) the owner at fault.
 
#41 ·
Being off leash is breaking the rules...Again, it does not matter how well trained your dog is. The law still applies to you. That's how laws work. There ARE people who use spaces with leash laws because 1) they have a dog phobia 2) they are working on reactivity issues with their own dog 3) they simply don't want to be in a space with any off-leash dog at all, no matter what. All of those are valid reasons.
 
#43 · (Edited)
You know what, many of us with reactive dogs work on it all the time, with LAT or similar training... but all it takes is one loose dog rushing ours to set our dogs back immensely. It's damn near impossible to keep your reactive dogs' focus on you when a loose dog is literally touching them. Try dealing with that cycle of training-->dogs getting better and better-->loose dog rushing them and setting them back-->training-->dogs getting better and better-->loose dog rushing them and setting them back over and over and then tell me how my dogs' reactivity is all my fault.

It doesn't help that I have little dogs, either. People don't consider their safety at all; they just think, "Oh, those little things can't hurt my dog," so they let their dogs rush mine even if I ask them not to. At this point I'm so fed up I almost want my next dog to be massive and scary-looking just so people leave me the hell alone. Even when I had a big fluffy malamute/collie, people leashed their dogs/crossed the street when they saw us coming... and he wasn't even reactive.
 
#44 ·
It doesn't help that I have little dogs, either. People don't consider their safety at all; they just think, "Oh, those little things can't hurt my dog," so they let their dogs rush mine even if I ask them not to. At this point I'm so fed up I almost want my next dog to be massive and scary-looking just so people leave me the hell alone. Even when I had a big fluffy malamute/collie, people leashed their dogs/crossed the street when they saw us coming... and he wasn't even reactive.
I can't even imagine having a dog people didn't take "seriously" when it was being reactive. Once this past summer, Quill and I were on a leash walk around the neighborhood. The boy next door rode his bike up to us and was asking questions about Quill, and I told him politely to stay back because at this point Quill was behaving. He didn't, kept coming, I told him more firmly he needed to not come over to my dog, he still didn't, even as I was walking away trying to get to my house, and Quill lost it. Quill is way over threshold, barking and lunging, and the boy STILL is following us around on his bike. I had to run back to our garage to get Quill under control, and even then, this kid was trying to follow us. A week before that, Quill was able to sit quietly while two men he had never met talked to my BF and I at a trail head. After that? We went back months in training.

Luckily, that stupid kid aside, most people see Quill bark and lunge and think he's trying to attack them or their dog. I was so annoyed at that kid -- I can't imagine dealing with that type of thing all the time!
 
#63 ·
The big thing is, this isn't about how well trained anyone's dog is. It's about A. following laws, and B. being a considerate human being.

You can have a very well trained dog and still be an inconsiderate human being. I have broken leash laws sometimes. I also hike my dog-social dog in off leash designated areas. When I see an owner struggling with a dog, a dog on leash, or any situation I'm not sure of... I call my dog back and keep him under control so the people can pass. Why do I do this when 'people who might be having issues' are putting their dogs in a difficult area? Because I'm trying to be a decent human being and give them a break.

Having a well trained dog certainly opens doors. Maybe you can take your dog more places than others can, if she's so under control. Maybe you'd consider letting people, who are more restricted by what they can do and where they can go, have some peace with their dogs.

I truly believe that a person can't empathize with, and simply doesn't understand, how emotionally difficult it can be to navigate the world and through dog culture with a reactive dog... Until they have one of their own.
 
#65 ·
The big thing is, this isn't about how well trained anyone's dog is. It's about A. following laws, and B. being a considerate human being.
AGREED! I felt I was being considerate, but came here to see what others thought. The conversation is getting sidetracked quickly to things that are not the issue.

You can have a very well trained dog and still be an inconsiderate human being. I have broken leash laws sometimes. I also hike my dog-social dog in off leash designated areas. When I see an owner struggling with a dog, a dog on leash, or any situation I'm not sure of... I call my dog back and keep him under control so the people can pass. Why do I do this when 'people who might be having issues' are putting their dogs in a difficult area? Because I'm trying to be a decent human being and give them a break.
Agreed again! My explanation of the fact my dog is well behaved and won't go running up to another one wasn't to show how awesome I am. It was to make it clear the other owner shouldn't have any concerns of that happening after watching us as much as he has.

As I mentioned, I put my dog in a sit or down stay when I see him approaching to be considerate of his dog. I do this to let any dog I don't know well pass without my dog running around. He just chooses to go the other way (which is fine with me).

Having a well trained dog certainly opens doors. Maybe you can take your dog more places than others can, if she's so under control. Maybe you'd consider letting people, who are more restricted by what they can do and where they can go, have some peace with their dogs.
He does have a place to go. The same park area as I have if he chooses. My dog won't bother his.
 
#64 ·
I agree completely. My last dog, as I mentioned, was a big malamute/collie, about 100 lbs at his healthiest weight. I got him when I was 17 and I didn't worry about that dog at all. He was easy. I did some training, obviously, but he naturally didn't care about other dogs or people, and he only reacted if a dog or (usually drunk or high) person got right in his face and tried to start something (and even then, his confident body language made them back off without him having to resort to violence almost every time). I could walk him down the street without a care. People crossed the street to avoid us based solely on his size.

Now, with my two small reactive dogs, I have to be on constant alert. Is that barking dog in that yard tied up? Is that dog 10 feet away from its owner on a flexi or is it loose? Is that dog that's running our way friendly, or is that aggressive body language -- quick, you only have a couple of seconds to decide! Is that loose dog that seems focused on its owner really focused, or is it going to come running at us the second it sees us? There are two or three loose dogs -- how many can I take on in the event they want to hurt or kill mine? It's mentally exhausting and it makes me resent every person who flaunts leash laws without a second thought.

We walk late at night a lot, for obvious reasons.
 
#67 ·
The bottom line is, you're breaking the law. I don't get to choose to drive the wrong way down a one-way no matter how good my reflexes are, or how slow traffic is at any given hour. It's still a one-way street. But, come on, what if it's really inconvenient for me personally to follow the one-way rule? Can I unilaterally declare myself the special exception? Naaaaawp.

You might have a truly remarkable dog that has 100% perfect recall under every circumstance, every day, every time, sure. You probably don't, because that dog probably doesn't exist. But yeah, maybe your dog is really close to that. But even if this is the case, bystanders really have no reason to give you the benefit of the doubt. You're already calling your credibility into question by flouting the law - why should they take your word for it? Since I don't believe in psychic powers, I'm also going to assume here that you can't see the future, and predict all possible circumstances with your dog. Say, the dog's hearing might start to go, or the thyroid levels might get out of whack, or the dog might develop a neurological problem, or any number of other things that may affect recall. I don't suppose you're giving the dog a full physical and behavioral analysis ever single time you take it to the park? The way you will discover there is a problem is when a problem arises. 100% recall to date does not mean 100% recall for all time.

Leash the dog or find a place where leash laws don't apply. Or go at like 3 am when the place is abandoned, if you really must.
 
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