Food obsessed
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Thread: Food obsessed

  1. #21
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    Re: Food obsessed

    You're using an e-collar for a purpose. But you're a black and white person in terms of thinking. How can the use of that collar be qualified to the dog. Oh it's okay because this is a constructive (competitive) exercise. But not when I need to fix your attention away from an instinctive preference. How can you train a dog, with food, to avoid food. You have had to build up a very specific relationship with the dog over time. So that the dog takes his instructions from you in all cases. And that's what you've already accomplished through your competitive sports training. Witness how much time and effort you put into the sport.

    I'm not promoting the mousetrap situation, just explaining it. So don't kill the messenger. The dog's owner was out of the house 5 days a week. And gave the dog free fun in the kitchen, family room and yard. The dog was already "on it's own" for most of the time spent. That was NOT the appropriate kind of relationship that should've been initiated from day 1 between handler and dog. Meaning to build a bond so reliable that it would accept any kind of direction given. Or to positively respond to something new that it needed to learn! There just wasn't time for it.

    The dog had basic family training. Sit, stay, down. But like with so many folks who have limited time with their dogs, they want to enjoy them when they're good, but annoyed when they're not. WTF. That's not a consistent routine. To teach a dog what's wanted (not just what it shouldn't do). She did not want to crate the dog on the few hours shared with him, until bedtime. In the environment, when a dog stumbles upon a negative stimulus in a situation, he learns to avoid it. That's not cruelty. That's the randomness of cause and effect.

    How dogs are fed in an endless discussion unto itself. Free feed or not? These were very well tempered dogs, or there wouldn't be any clients. IMO (a little too soft) but fun companions. I've seen a lot owners feed their dogs in the corners of rooms, and as long as every dog seems to get enough to eat, there have been no battles. But these are also NOT high prey driven dogs in any sense. Or the size of dog that would be hard pressed to pull off of one another.

    So you don't think knowing how to speak to your dogs makes a difference? Do you "ask" your dog for a recall, or make it a statement. Tone of voice got the attention of the breeder's dogs (who were a bit canine ADD anyway) because she was focused, confident, and clear. You're always speaking about clarity, right! She taught the dogs from a young age that skirmishes would not be permitted. Usually by separating them. Only took a couple of times for them to learn.

    Now another breeder, permitted a much higher level of "Show" (performance) energy, and did not suppress as much volatility in her line, preferring more genuinely spontaneous (and fearless) behavior. But she was settling many more eruptions among the dogs too. And also resorted to much more crating, and segregation. It all depends on how people want to live with their dogs. And what they're doing with them. I am not out to make an argument for any preference, except that love should guide a person's interactions with them.
    Last edited by Pacificsun; 05-23-2019 at 03:25 PM.

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  3. #22
    Senior Member parus's Avatar
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    Re: Food obsessed

    When you give bad advice, then realize it was bad advice, the healthy response is to say, "That's a good point, please disregard my previous," rather than doubling down even harder on the mistake.

  4. #23
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    Re: Food obsessed

    In response to your #22. I would if I did. You are making that assumption. About giving advice particularly as a recommendation.

    The "healthy" response (to continue once again with infinite patience) is to request an adequate re-reading of my responses that further clarify comments made. I refer you to #17 and #19. Pointing out in particular, that even with myself owning a dog with very challenging issues, that I would no more use an E-Collar on the dog, than on myself. (Yeah, that sure does sounds like an E-Collar recommendation to me alright).

    I don't own one, I've never told anybody to use one. I am reporting on the experiences that other people have, especially for the failure to fixate a secure, reliable "recall" command in the first place. To that point, (in theory) if their dog was running irresponsibly up and down our neighborhood, which aligns with a busy street (and perhaps because he got out accidentally) does that mean the circumstance should be ignored? Meaning just BECAUSE the owner hadn't put in the APPROPRIATE time required for "reward based incentivized" training? And by not building that direct bond with the dog, who would clearly understand to take direction only from his owner. Then is that just an unfortunate accident? An out of control dog in the danger of traffic, or the kind of a method (though not your preference) that only works for that kind of a dog owner, and the dog's personality. Consider it as a backup to an unexpected situation.

    So, when that kind of person DOES let their dog run loose up and down our court, he wears an E-Collar, and he listens to his owner, who hasn't had to use a stim since it was put on (and in fact by the "professional" trainer, to whom they were paying big money, for solutions). So there you go.


    I'm only reporting the situation, not defending it. But understand this: there is a DIFFERENCE between EDUCATING (that's a verb) people, and keeping them from their own folly. The right thing to do is the appropriate kind of training in the first place (to fixate reliable, consistent responses) and keeping that dog from the danger of possibly running into traffic. By way of another example, that DID happen to our opposite next door neighbor, when the dog got out of the yard, and ran into that very street. HAD they ever built up a relationship, where the dog was instinctively responsive to the owner, would shadow the owner (like not trying to escape) it might've had a better outcome. Apparently not.

    Since I had the courtesy to figure out (and then reference) the quote to which you are referring (see below), the misinterpretation of it says a lot about the general failure of critical thinking analysis. So let's go over this. "Letting a dog run loose into trouble" is INTENTIONAL (neglect) and irresponsible. I see where it has nothing to do with the evaluation of an E-Collar, or by qualifying the dog's access to getting into trouble. But for some weird reason you've made that connection. Here's the order of business. (1) Correct opportunities for a dog to get into trouble. (2) Supervise, and secure dogs prone to trouble. (3) Bond with the dog so he EXPECTS direction from you. (4) DO it with incentivized (rewarding, engaging) training. (5) Training never ceases, it's always a work in progress. (6) Be mindful of your own business without trying to impose your methods on others. (7) Should you be asked, refer owners to adequate resources for EDUCATION so they understand options.

    I don't have any "magic bullets" but kudos to you, if you do.

    {{{ It says a lot about your depth of knowledge that the only dichotomy you can come up with is "E-COLLAR" or "LET A DOG RUN LOOSE INTO TROUBLE." As if those against e-collars favor letting dogs get hit by cars. }}} - That is some kind of huge conclusion to assume.

    {{{ It says even more that you'd recommend the things that you do, without consideration of how well you know the poster, their training history, their timing and training mechanics, etc. }}} - And yet you're responding on this forum as well.

    {{{ Can you imagine something like... "This random person on the internet recommended a shock collar, and now our dog is afraid to enter the kitchen! What do I do?" Would you fly over there and fix that for them? }}} - Still people are asking total strangers for input.

    ~ Signed "The Thought Police"
    Last edited by Pacificsun; 05-23-2019 at 08:14 PM.

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  6. #24
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    Re: Food obsessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacificsun View Post
    You're using an e-collar for a purpose. But you're a black and white person in terms of thinking. How can the use of that collar be qualified to the dog. Oh it's okay because this is a constructive (competitive) exercise. But not when I need to fix your attention away from an instinctive preference. How can you train a dog, with food, to avoid food. You have had to build up a very specific relationship with the dog over time. So that the dog takes his instructions from you in all cases. And that's what you've already accomplished through your competitive sports training. Witness how much time and effort you put into the sport.
    Not really. I do put time and effort into training my dog. None of them take direction from me 100% of the time. They DO seek to have a relationship with me and we do many non-training fun things like pond swimming, woods hiking and so forth. My dogs often come up with their "own ideas" which can be... interesting...

    I'm not promoting the mousetrap situation, just explaining it. So don't kill the messenger. The dog's owner was out of the house 5 days a week. And gave the dog free fun in the kitchen, family room and yard. The dog was already "on it's own" for most of the time spent. That was NOT the appropriate kind of relationship that should've been initiated from day 1 between handler and dog. Meaning to build a bond so reliable that it would accept any kind of direction given. Or to positively respond to something new that it needed to learn! There just wasn't time for it.
    Emphasis added by me to indicate the HUMAN FAILURE which is not the DOG's FAILURE. This is WHY they install doors on rooms, make outdoor dog kennels, X Pens, gates and so forth. CONFINE THE DOG. It is simple. It is safer for the dog. I am also out of the house 5 days a week. NO DOGS LOOSE. I never come home to a "problem" such as dog jumping on counter and accidentally turning the gas stove on or killing itself by gnawing an electric cord or any number of other problems that a dog can get into and get hurt or killed by. This is NOT a "training" failure. It is a human too lazy issue.

    The dog had basic family training. Sit, stay, down. But like with so many folks who have limited time with their dogs, they want to enjoy them when they're good, but annoyed when they're not. WTF. That's not a consistent routine. To teach a dog what's wanted (not just what it shouldn't do). She did not want to crate the dog on the few hours shared with him, until bedtime. In the environment, when a dog stumbles upon a negative stimulus in a situation, he learns to avoid it. That's not cruelty. That's the randomness of cause and effect.
    Again. HUMAN FAILURE is what you describe. Watch the dog and spend time with the dog. Teach the dog to sit or lie down.. and reward THAT (and food is not the ONLY reward.. a game with a toy can also be rewarding). If you want a reliable response, you keep an eye on the dog just like you would a little kid. If you are distracted and cannot pay attention to the dog use an X pen (it is open and very different from "crating" so the dog can still be "with you" but not over there on its own getting into trouble OR (novel idea here) REMOVE THE FOOD FROM THE COUNTER. dogs typically do NOT go on counters unless they can get rewarded for going on counters. Every time a dog self rewards because the HUMAN left food on the counter the HUMAN is reinforcing counter surfing.

    How dogs are fed in an endless discussion unto itself. Free feed or not? These were very well tempered dogs, or there wouldn't be any clients. IMO (a little too soft) but fun companions. I've seen a lot owners feed their dogs in the corners of rooms, and as long as every dog seems to get enough to eat, there have been no battles. But these are also NOT high prey driven dogs in any sense. Or the size of dog that would be hard pressed to pull off of one another.
    Again, just simply remove the possibility. Feed each dog a meal separately in a crate. 20 minutes to eat. Take food up that is not eaten. I never free feed anything but cattle and horses.. and even the cattle were fed many small meals to maximize rumen efficiency to make more milk.

    So you don't think knowing how to speak to your dogs makes a difference? Do you "ask" your dog for a recall, or make it a statement. Tone of voice got the attention of the breeder's dogs (who were a bit canine ADD anyway) because she was focused, confident, and clear. You're always speaking about clarity, right! She taught the dogs from a young age that skirmishes would not be permitted. Usually by separating them. Only took a couple of times for them to learn.

    Now another breeder, permitted a much higher level of "Show" (performance) energy, and did not suppress as much volatility in her line, preferring more genuinely spontaneous (and fearless) behavior. But she was settling many more eruptions among the dogs too. And also resorted to much more crating, and segregation. It all depends on how people want to live with their dogs. And what they're doing with them. I am not out to make an argument for any preference, except that love should guide a person's interactions with them.
    This last part is a discussion for another day.

  7. #25
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    Re: Food obsessed

    I agree with your reactions to all the quotes.

    With "love" I meant the opposite of doing harm, but not the failure of indulgence and no boundaries!

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