Came to me for (free) Advice
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  1. #1
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    Came to me for (free) Advice

    Someone I know came to me and wanted advice.

    Has two dogs, both are 9. One is a Male Chocolate Lab and the other is Female Pit Bull (PB). PB is "suddenly" attacking the Lab. Triggers are when the kids (teenagers) are sitting on the couch eating food or other times when family is together both indoors and out. PB warns with a growl and then attacks the Lab and has escalated to drawing blood. Dogs used to be "friends" and even were boarded at some kennel with both dogs sharing a kennel (not something I would do). Last time they went away the kennel refused the Lab because he had an open wound on his head.

    Sooo.. the question was "can you fix this." I think he expected me to come to the house and strap an E Collar on the PB and fry the dog for it's behavior... and "fix" this quick and easy for him.

    Well, no....

    I told him the BEST thing he could do is crate or kennel the PB when they were eating and to separate the two dogs permanently. He indicated the behavior was "suddenly new" but the level of knowledge about dogs is such that I suspect this has been building for a Looooong time. In all fairness to the dog and the description I was given I recommended taking the dog to a vet and getting a complete work up and insure it is not low thyroid etc. etc.

    Of course they do not want to spend the money at the Vet and all the vaccinations have been a Tractor Supply so they don't HAVE a regular vet. Initial exams are more $$ and then the blood test.. and they have the $$ but "all that for a dog??" is the attitude.

    He wanted to know about muzzling the dog. I said he could try a basket muzzle but sometimes PB's are not easy to fit and a muzzle takes some training to get used to.

    We discussed this AND separating the dogs and crating the PB when food is present.. and the response was "my kids will never keep these rules up.." and maybe just shutting the PB in a room (and the kids will forget her and not get her out).

    Considering the attitude about effort and money finally I said well here are your choices.
    1.) Separate the dogs. Permanently.
    2.) Basket muzzle if they are together.
    3.) Take to the vet and give a dose of Pink Juice and be done with it. This last one caused his jaw to drop.

    I said I put #3 out there because it sounds like no one wants to work at this and train the dog or take the dog to a vet to insure it is not a physical issue. If the two dogs fight one of the people, maybe one of your kids, could get badly injured because they probably do not know how to wheel barrow a dog backward by hind feet and they do not know how to break up a dog fight involving a PB. The situation is escalating and one day the PB may very well kill the Lab.

    He then went on to say the dog came from an abusive situation, afraid of men and so forth. I asked how he knew the dog was abused. He said they got the dog at a year old and it would submissive pee and ran away from men but no one said the dog was abused. I said while abuse might have happened it is unlikely and the dog was simply genetically wired to to be afraid and not confident. Men have a different presence than women.. usually they stand taller, have a deeper voice and a different presence and that was likely the issue.

    This person wanted a magic bullet. I suspect the dog has been giving signals for a LOOONG time but they did not see them. He admitted to punishing the dog for growling. They do not want to spend $$. They do not want to make any effort (like separating the dogs) (I even offered a free outdoor 10X10X6 foot kennel to help them!). They wanted me to come fix the issue in a single visit OR (preferably) tell them how to fix it instantly OR loan them an E collar (NO NOT EVER WOULD I DO THIS).

    This is NOT a dog that should be "punished!" Yet that was the owner's first "go to."

    Meanwhile, someone who is a bit more savvy than the owner but knows the dog told me "that dog nearly bit me last year and it has been aggressive with the other dog for awhile..." (insert eye roll) (I suspected this).

    I was polite to the dog owner but this, my friends, is WHY you are unlikely to hear of me working training Pet dogs.

    It isn't the dogs. It is the owners....
    Last edited by 3GSD4IPO; 04-29-2019 at 10:09 AM.

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  3. #2
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    Re: Came to me for (free) Advice

    It isn't the dogs, it's the owners. For me, it wasn't the computers, it was the owners.

    You do not owe anyone "free" advice because it is NOT free. Your time is valuable and so is your emotional energy. If the question was, "Can you fix this?" then the answer is "No."

    It might be in the dogs' best interest to say, "But an animal behaviorist certified by the bla bla bla could do this that or the other and you could google to find out if there is a good one in your area."

    But of course I could also say, "You know, you really don't NEED microsoft word and you'd love coding if you'd just give it a chance." too.

    Le sigh. Sympathy and solidarity.

    ETA: I couldn't bear to read the dog-specific details of your post until after I had given you the general advice about human nature. I want that pibble.

    Unfortunately, I'm not a homeowner so no, I can't have her and yes, she is better off euthanized NOW than after she has suffered enough to be unfairly considered a "dangerous dog" and the Lab or a child has died.
    Last edited by laurelsmom; 04-30-2019 at 03:02 AM.
    Laurel the Wonder Dog born on or about 9/1/18: micro-mutt, li'l yaller dawg, or "All-American".
    Dark Skies O' The Mountains, C.D., Shetland Sheepdog, crossed the Rainbow Bridge on or about 1986ish

    They say that diamonds are a girl's best friend, but diamonds are cold, hard, dead things and doggies have floppy ears and little pink tongues and waggy tails and they actually give a %&^(& when you're crying.

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    Re: Came to me for (free) Advice

    We cannot save them all, nor should we. At age 9 she is a senior. She should be living out life with as little stress as possible. She is genetically fearful and nervy and.. she may have a physical issue. She also may have had her dog aggressive gene turn on and so there is that.

    I know the owner some.. I try to help people if I can. He is thinking of rehoming her! Well, he can and then the liability is his...

    Even if I was a bonafide paid dog trainer person I would not touch this dog for liability reasons. Say I "fix" the issue and then in 6 months it resurfaces and a kid is bit. Guess who is in the law suite chain. Yes. Me.....

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    Re: Came to me for (free) Advice

    And, sadly, everything you just told me about her makes me want her even more. I think she would be a perfect fit for me and Laurel's new fur family pet puppy adoptive grandparenthood extended family multispecies thingy-thing other than that not being able to afford to buy a house nonsense. We don't even HAVE teenagers and neither of us would mind going to the bathroom to eat or doing something else "not normal" to help an old lady with CPTSD. I waaaaaaant. Waaaah.

    Neither you nor I are bad people, it just is what it is. There is a reason why I am unable to own a red nosed Senior pibble and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that I am poor.

    The fact that you don't care about Linux has nothing to do with your socioeconomic status or politics either, but no dogs are hurt by that so who cares.

    You did the right thing and I hope my dream dog will rest in peace soon enough. Some dreams are best left in the imagination where they belong.
    Last edited by laurelsmom; 04-30-2019 at 10:35 PM.
    Laurel the Wonder Dog born on or about 9/1/18: micro-mutt, li'l yaller dawg, or "All-American".
    Dark Skies O' The Mountains, C.D., Shetland Sheepdog, crossed the Rainbow Bridge on or about 1986ish

    They say that diamonds are a girl's best friend, but diamonds are cold, hard, dead things and doggies have floppy ears and little pink tongues and waggy tails and they actually give a %&^(& when you're crying.

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    Everybody wants the easy way, the magic bullet. Goes right back to education.....and applying and following through. Its just not something most people are wired for. I think with dogs and pets it theres also an element of the idea of a pet versus the reality of that animal. Theres also some willfull ignorance at play. Something I tell my friends when they talk about issues like this with their dogs- yeah its a family member, yeah the dog loves you and all.....but we are bringing these animals into our homes as pets- they have fangs. We are keeping a predator as a pet ( yeah I know dogs are more scavengers but still ). There are going to be not so desirable behaviors that come with that. People dont generally freak out when their cat kills another animal- its what cats do. Your dog kills an animal, people see it differently even though the dog also has fangs, and if its a small breed theres even a high likelihood that breed was created purely to kill other small animals. It sucks that the animals have to suffer for our shortcomings.

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    Re: Came to me for (free) Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Everybody wants the easy way, the magic bullet. Goes right back to education.....and applying and following through. Its just not something most people are wired for. I think with dogs and pets it theres also an element of the idea of a pet versus the reality of that animal. Theres also some willfull ignorance at play. Something I tell my friends when they talk about issues like this with their dogs- yeah its a family member, yeah the dog loves you and all.....but we are bringing these animals into our homes as pets- they have fangs. We are keeping a predator as a pet ( yeah I know dogs are more scavengers but still ). There are going to be not so desirable behaviors that come with that. People dont generally freak out when their cat kills another animal- its what cats do. Your dog kills an animal, people see it differently even though the dog also has fangs, and if its a small breed theres even a high likelihood that breed was created purely to kill other small animals. It sucks that the animals have to suffer for our shortcomings.
    Exactly.

    I'm not a dog person. I had bad experiences as a child that you aren't interested in and worse experiences as a teen/young wife who should never have been married in the first place but I'm not going to tell you about them.

    I bought Laurel because I didn't want to die. Plain and simple. Same reason you would buy a pig, a sheep, a chicken, a cow, a goat,a bunny, etc. I eat vegan food but can no longer call myself a vegan so just don't go there.

    I had no intention whatsoever of adopting a child, I just didn't want to die and didn't know very much about dogs. She'll serve my purpose as a watch dog just fine as long as I respect her and treat her decently. I have no idea why, she just will because she's a dog.

    I'm here to learn about dogs and my comments on this thread were direct answers and advice about people coming to you asking for "free" advice. There is no such thing. Freedom isn't FREE*, never has been, and never will be.

    If the cost of saving a single one of Laurel's younger siblings or five hundredth cousins 1,000 times removed is making a fool of myself on an internet forum board, I think I can handle that much. Pooch has to deal with a lot more than that and she does so willingly. Of course I want a bunny now that I've been loved by a dog but I can't have one because Laurel only weighs six pounds and the bunny would kill her. You would too if you were a bunny.
    Last edited by laurelsmom; 04-30-2019 at 08:36 AM.
    Laurel the Wonder Dog born on or about 9/1/18: micro-mutt, li'l yaller dawg, or "All-American".
    Dark Skies O' The Mountains, C.D., Shetland Sheepdog, crossed the Rainbow Bridge on or about 1986ish

    They say that diamonds are a girl's best friend, but diamonds are cold, hard, dead things and doggies have floppy ears and little pink tongues and waggy tails and they actually give a %&^(& when you're crying.

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    Re: Came to me for (free) Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by 3GSD4IPO View Post
    I was polite to the dog owner but this, my friends, is WHY you are unlikely to hear of me working training Pet dogs.
    Perhaps a little condescending, and unfairly painted with pretty broad brushstrokes don't you think?

    It has nothing to do with "pet" dogs and owners. Plenty of trainers work happily and willingly each day with these types of clients. The difference for them is, they're not doing it for (FREE). Clients who are inclined to pay are also inclined to take advice seriously and follow through. And vice versa. Regardless of the discipline or category they might fall into.

    I teach comp OB classes; you know that. And I like to think I got here the same way that the majority of my peers have: by doing my fair share of work in the trenches, over the years. It's not easy nor particularly pleasant at times. Yet it constitutes a large part of who I am today, and what I -- hopefully -- know.

    I mean, everyone is entitled to their personal biases, and charting their own future. But.

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    Re: Came to me for (free) Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by petpeeve View Post
    Perhaps a little condescending, and unfairly painted with pretty broad brushstrokes don't you think?

    It has nothing to do with "pet" dogs and owners. Plenty of trainers work happily and willingly each day with these types of clients. The difference for them is, they're not doing it for (FREE). Clients who are inclined to pay are also inclined to take advice seriously and follow through. And vice versa. Regardless of the discipline or category they might fall into.

    I teach comp OB classes; you know that. And I like to think I got here the same way that the majority of my peers have: by doing my fair share of work in the trenches, over the years. It's not easy nor particularly pleasant at times. Yet it constitutes a large part of who I am today, and what I -- hopefully -- know.

    I mean, everyone is entitled to their personal biases, and charting their own future. But.
    I am REALLY glad there are folks like you who do this. I think it means for more dogs being happy and living happily.

    I admit to not having the patience to deal with teaching (or trying to teach) someone who already knows or must be talked off doing something REALLY inappropriate. I see nothing "condescending" about admitting that people try me and using this as an example of how they try me and why I don't want to train pet dog owners (the DOGS are fine).

    I know almost all competitive dog sport folks started out with pet dogs (including myself). I am grateful someone like you had the patience I lack and showed me.

    The situation I depicted was someone I know who dropped by at my house and wanted free advice. I do not hold classes. I do not want to (and this person is part of why I don't want to). I do not get paid to train. This person knows I DO train.. avidly.. and I compete and they assumed I would have the "magic" answer (or an E Collar he could borrow! ...).
    Last edited by 3GSD4IPO; 04-30-2019 at 12:30 PM.

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    Re: Came to me for (free) Advice

    I thought I recently read in another thread that you were somewhat interested in becoming a "trainer" when you retire from employment?

    If that's the case, mostly what I'm saying is don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Yeah, maybe do so in this instance because the moment has likely come and gone. Just be aware when other opportunities come along. The ability to motivate extremely stubborn people to enact DRASTIC change in their lives and their mindsets, is a definite asset. In fact it's pretty much a must-have skill. And 'ability', just like dog training itself, is a function of repetition, practice, and a few other key ingredients. Learn to completely embrace those opportunities, irrespective of the handler level, despite how challenging it may sometimes be.

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    Senior Member CptJack's Avatar
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    Re: Came to me for (free) Advice

    Man, if you think you're going to get respect and people willing to follow your word/advice blindly because they're sports/competition/work (any of the above) dog handlers, you are in for a rude wake up call

    You know who listens best to advice? People who have a problem and dont' believe they already have the answers.

    You know who tends to fight you? People who have a problem and think they know enough to know what the answer is/isn't. I'm cool with that, but if you want 'follows advice' rather than 'questions, challenges, and pushes' you do not want the working and sports people, LOL.
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    Re: Came to me for (free) Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by petpeeve View Post
    I thought I recently read in another thread that you were somewhat interested in becoming a "trainer" when you retire from employment?

    If that's the case, mostly what I'm saying is don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Yeah, maybe do so in this instance because the moment has likely come and gone. Just be aware when other opportunities come along. The ability to motivate extremely stubborn people to enact DRASTIC change in their lives and their mindsets, is a definite asset. In fact it's pretty much a must-have skill. And 'ability', just like dog training itself, is a function of repetition, practice, and a few other key ingredients. Learn to completely embrace those opportunities, irrespective of the handler level, despite how challenging it may sometimes be.
    The more I thought about it, the more I have decided not to.
    Some people enjoy teaching.. I am not one of them. This interaction was (one reason) why. I don't NEED to do this. I don't need to and I don't want to.

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    Re: Came to me for (free) Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by CptJack View Post
    Man, if you think you're going to get respect and people willing to follow your word/advice blindly because they're sports/competition/work (any of the above) dog handlers, you are in for a rude wake up call

    You know who listens best to advice? People who have a problem and dont' believe they already have the answers.

    You know who tends to fight you? People who have a problem and think they know enough to know what the answer is/isn't. I'm cool with that, but if you want 'follows advice' rather than 'questions, challenges, and pushes' you do not want the working and sports people, LOL.
    I haven't the foggiest idea what you are saying here?
    A person I know came to me and wanted a quick fix for their dog. They wanted magic dust or my e collar and remote (because, thankfully, they are too cheap to buy their own). I told them what they needed to do and they don't want to do any of that because it takes work and management of dogs, kids, household and the rest.. and they want easy. The person didn't "fight me" they just said they would not do the work. That is fine. Their kids, their dogs and their liability.

    I don't know WHAT this is about:
    You know who tends to fight you? People who have a problem and think they know enough to know what the answer is/isn't. I'm cool with that, but if you want 'follows advice' rather than 'questions, challenges, and pushes' you do not want the working and sports people, LOL.


    I train with a club and we have good people and we work as a team to solve problems and succeed (and sometimes not.. and then we all regroup.. such is the nature of training dogs). I am NOT training other people's dogs in that venue either (and, in that venue, no one pays for training as we all train our own dogs.. HOT.. Handler-Owner-trained). I think you think I am going to go out and charge people money to train IPO or now IPG working dogs. No... No one pays for that.. the darn sport is expensive enough just doing it. Does anyone train Agility dogs for other people to trial? Maybe they do?

    I am NOT wanting to train dogs for money. This guy who came to me is one reason why.

    Made me think a bit and I was like, "Nope Nope Nope." Even if I wanted to train dogs and get paid, due to liability I would not take or train any dog with a known aggression issue. Say I did train it.. it goes back home.. nothing THERE changes and a kid gets bit. Guess who will be getting sued? Just forget it. Even if I was not found at faulty the cost of defense alone could bankrupt me.

    I am doing what I am doing with my own dog and my working dog club and I am happy with that.. and I want to STAY happy with that and the challenge of that. It is enough for me. I do not need followers or people seeking my advice.

    I don't want to own more than two dogs. I don't want to teach other people and their dogs. I like training and I like my dogs. Why ever would I mess with that?

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    Re: Came to me for (free) Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by 3GSD4IPO View Post
    The more I thought about it, the more I have decided not to.
    Some people enjoy teaching.. I am not one of them. This interaction was (one reason) why. I don't NEED to do this. I don't need to and I don't want to.
    That takes a lot of maturity. Teaching isn't easy and a lot of people just don't want to do it anymore. Nobody expects FREE* brain surgery. If you enjoy forums or writing serious books more or some other way of helping dogs by helping their owners, THAT'S OKAY TOO.

    There's a lot of breed prejudice against pitties. It's serious business and saving the life of one dog (even though she sounds completely innocent) could potentially cost the lives of many others and quite possibly some of their more vulnerable owners and possibly lead to even more restrictions, not on "tenants" red ants black ants fire ants or any sort of insignificant and replaceable "ant" at all, but on the same darned homeowner's insurance policies, zoning laws, and regulations that EVERYBODY has to follow.

    Things are looking pretty bad for dogs right now compared to Lassie and Timmy, Rin Tin Tin, and the Albert Payson Terhune books. Perhaps Pa Ingalls would say something comforting like, "You can't stop progress, Half-pint." or "But Jack wanted to keep going west with Pet and Patty. It wouldn't be fair to keep him locked up and miserable here in the dug-out and when we make our first crop, you and Mary and Baby Carrie can EACH have your VERY OWN baby pibble." but I don't want to live in a world without dogs or a world where dog ownership has become as gentrified as horse ownership.

    Neither did horse people, of course. Maybe bunny people and fish people will learn something from our mistakes. Evolution, you think?

    Nobody is singlehandedly responsible for fixing everything that is broken in this world. 3GSD4IPO has educated a lot of people besides my illustrious self, it's just frustrating not to see any results.

    Most people who fall for scams because they cut corners or stretched their finances a bit are embarassed about it and when it comes to a "family member" or a "fur baby", they just aren't going to take the time to thank you or risk getting caught up in some long, drawn-out philosophical argument over......

    I think all I'm trying to say is really, "Chill out. It's just a person."
    Laurel the Wonder Dog born on or about 9/1/18: micro-mutt, li'l yaller dawg, or "All-American".
    Dark Skies O' The Mountains, C.D., Shetland Sheepdog, crossed the Rainbow Bridge on or about 1986ish

    They say that diamonds are a girl's best friend, but diamonds are cold, hard, dead things and doggies have floppy ears and little pink tongues and waggy tails and they actually give a %&^(& when you're crying.

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    Senior Member PatriciafromCO's Avatar
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    Re: Came to me for (free) Advice

    I gave firm advice when asked "how to you (me) keep my 14 gsds home... I said it's called a fence... the guy smirked and in the end , he didn't build a fence, or do anything, like he hadn't done anything for them for 2 years. He shot them and blamed it on the cattle ranchers. no advice would of made a difference in some people..

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    Re: Came to me for (free) Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by PatriciafromCO View Post
    I gave firm advice when asked "how to you (me) keep my 14 gsds home... I said it's called a fence... the guy smirked and in the end , he didn't build a fence, or do anything, like he hadn't done anything for them for 2 years. He shot them and blamed it on the cattle ranchers. no advice would of made a difference in some people..
    I re-read things last night. I totally misread Cpt Jack.. such is the issue of forums. She has also misread me on other posts. It's all good. She has told me she does not respect me (other discussions) and that is OK. The world will continue to spin.

    FWIW and completely off topic, in my day job my work has resulted (over years) in about 1 million acres of land being preserved as open space, with most of that open space being accessible by the public. Hiking, hunting, fishing, horseback riding, sustainable forestry and sustainable timber management and forever wild (no timber cut) forests are all part of that. I was a dairy farmer and I was a horse trainer (riding horses) and broodmare manager on the night shift foaling Thoroughbreds. I have worked REALLY hard at all these things and, hopefully, made some sort of positive impact as a result. I am very close to retirement and, at this age (selfish as it sounds) I am done and this is not MY time. I carried the torch helping others and saving and preserving the earth and people. I am done. Time for others to pick up the torch.

    So, no.. I do not want to teach. I am not going to do Pit Bull rescue. I am not going to try to help people train their dogs unless they are also helping me (the symbiosis of our little working dog club is where that happens). I still have much to learn and that is happening.

    I do not need to hang out a shingle and train dogs and get paid and worry about who does or does not respect me or what I do. I do not need to make an insurance company more money by buying business liability insurance training other people's dogs. I do not need to work for someone else training dogs under their shingle. I do not want to work at a shelter training or working with dogs. I most certainly do not need to try to work with someone who has made up their mind that any effort on their part is not happening and I am supposed to fix it all in a single session!

    Does this mean I will sit home? No.. I will still work but it will be doing what I want and teaching other people how to train their dogs is simply not on my agenda.

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    Re: Came to me for (free) Advice

    I'm confused. You generated 6 entries defending or explaining why you're satisfied with the life you're leading. And I don't see where the people you are addressing (here) are advocating for you to do anything differently. Kudos for the ability to spot the kind of people who ask questions they never actually want answered. Those kind of people have always been a mystery to me.

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