Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?
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Thread: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

  1. #41
    Member iim7v7im7's Avatar
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    The issue that I have with the inference that you are making with the inference that is being made about the potential observed rate of diet induced DCM is the assumption that the 515 case reports (numerator) in the FDA update were from the total estimated dog population of USA (87,000,000 last I looked). This is an observed rate (no upper confidence interval around this) of 1 in 169,000 dogs (> 10-6, extremely remote occurrence rate).

    The issue I have with this is only a small portion of the dog population is fed grain free foods. Pedigree and Purina Dog Chow (and others) are fed to many more dogs than these more expensive, grain free kibbles. For example, in the US the number of dogs being fed Acana is < 100,000 than 87,000,000 and the reported incidence rate was 67 dogs. A more realistic rate estimate is more like 1 in 1,200 (> 10-3 or moderate risk). This is still a relatively low rate, but is much higher than what people are stating.

    Yes, some reports are incomplete, confounded with genetic disposition and comorbidities, but there is an unusual, unexplained signal here. No, the exact root cause is not yet understood but until it is, people willing to continue feeding their dogs are not crazy (just believe that the benefits outweigh the risks) nor are owners who want to avoid the risk until it is better understood. This will be understood in the next year or two. There are controlled studies ongoing that may explain this.

    I agree that rotating foods between differing protein sources, formulations and manufacturers is a good risk reducing practice. Supplementation as you suggest can also further reduce the risk. I fall into the camp that believe that the risks outweigh the benefits. There are 13 Australian Shepherd case reports (my dog breed) with dogs as young as 2 with DCM on grain free diets. Until the root cause is identified, I have chosen to move from my grain free food (Orijen) to a rotation of legume/tuber free formulations. If one spends some time and looks, one can find a good rotation from reputable manufacturers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patchy & Sue View Post
    There's NO evidence diet caused DCM with these dogs, & under 600 dogs since Jan 2014 that's not many dogs especially when US has around 78 million dogs, you'd think the amount of dogs would be much higher.
    I've been feeding G/F & rotating Wellness Core, Wellness Simple, Canidae Pure Meadow, Pure Wild & a few other grain free kibbles over 4 yrs cause my boy has IBD & doesn't do well on grains, he does really well on potato kibbles & he's fine, he can't eat lentils causes diarrhea & chickpeas cause gas..
    Might have been a blessing in disguise.
    In Australia we have no cases of DCM neither does Europe.. I think this DCM has been blown up cause why is it just happening USA??
    Just don't fed the same brand of kibble month after month, rotate & change kibble brands & add fresh whole foods to dogs diet, tin sardines, tin salmon, fresh egg, veggies, fresh meats + organ meat, mussels

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  3. #42
    Senior Member parus's Avatar
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    If there was some real advantage to feeding grain-free, I'd have to weigh that against the relatively low numbers of DCM. But since there's no solid reason for me to feed grain-free anyway, why not be better safe than sorry and go with a food/formulation that hasn't been implicated?

  4. #43
    Senior Member parus's Avatar
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Francl27 View Post
    I found one formula I'm comfortable giving to my dogs (Bright Mind) because it has more meat (chicken and by-products in the first 3 ingredients, as opposed to just chicken).
    I don't really worry about the "first three ingredients" thing. First ingredient, sure. But the percentages are the key thing, IMO. Like, my water's second listed ingredient is trace minerals, but it's still 99+ percent water.

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  6. #44
    Senior Member LeoRose's Avatar
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Quote Originally Posted by parus View Post
    I don't really worry about the "first three ingredients" thing. First ingredient, sure. But the percentages are the key thing, IMO. Like, my water's second listed ingredient is trace minerals, but it's still 99+ percent water.
    Well, if the first three ingredients are "chicken, chicken meal, and rice", you have to take into account that the chicken is roughly 80% water, whereas chicken meal and rice contain a lot less moisture, so they are actually contributing more to the overall make up of the food than the chicken.
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  7. #45
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeoRose View Post
    Well, if the first three ingredients are "chicken, chicken meal, and rice", you have to take into account that the chicken is roughly 80% water, whereas chicken meal and rice contain a lot less moisture, so they are actually contributing more to the overall make up of the food than the chicken.
    Exactly this. Unfortunately, they don't tell us the percentages. You said this much better than I would have, lol.

  8. #46
    Member iim7v7im7's Avatar
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Knowing the weights may not help as much as many think. For example, when you see ingredient #1 and it stated 30% boneless chicken w/w (weight on weight) and ingredient #2 is brown rice 15% w/w this represents when ingredients are weighed out pre-cooking. Post cooking the percentage are greatly different once 90% of the water leaves the formulation. The analysis after cooking it might be 7.5% boneless chicken and 7.5% brown rice for the same ingredients....Food for thought.

  9. #47
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Found this article today

    https://www.crossfit.com/health/bad-...AaJHZhmgX-Jcio

    It's really infuriating. I'm so sick of not knowing who is right and who is wrong and that's it always about money and of people making me feel like a bad dog owner or bad person when I mention that there's no way that I would feed some foods because, for me, they just don't have enough meat, and that just because "they are recommended" doesn't mean that they are good foods (I mean... would people seriously feed Purina Dog Chow over some BEG diet because it's in the list of "recommended" pet food manufacturers?).

    OF COURSE the vets who did the studies are partnered with the big 4's. Why in the world doesn't it seem to bother anyone? How can you expect it to be unbiased?

  10. #48
    Member laurelsmom's Avatar
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Francl27 View Post
    FI'm so sick of not knowing who is right and who is wrong and that's it always about money and of people making me feel like a bad dog owner or bad person when I mention that there's no way that I would feed some foods because, for me, they just don't have enough meat, and that just because "they are recommended" doesn't mean that they are good foods (I mean... would people seriously feed Purina Dog Chow over some BEG diet because it's in the list of "recommended" pet food manufacturers?).

    OF COURSE the vets who did the studies are partnered with the big 4's. Why in the world doesn't it seem to bother anyone? How can you expect it to be unbiased?
    ITA; I don't even use kibble and this is just motivating me to learn more about canine nutrition and put their health above my squeamishness. There are vegan dog foods marketed to people like myself, who just like the idea of a "non-obligate carnivore" and don't want to be reminded that Precious Poochie Princess is actually a cold blooded killer of prey animals. Laurel eats and likes them and they are AAFCO formulated for all life stages. Sounds great (to veg*n me)in theory but how can that possibly be safer than Acana or Taste of the Wild? How can it possibly be unthinkably "bad" to stretch out prepared raw that is 90% meat, bones, and organs by adding a few spoonfuls or locally grown organic GMO-free quinoa instead of switching to Purina, Ol' Roy, or some other kibble with (moldy, unfit for human consumption)"cornmeal" as a first ingredient?

    This:

    https://littledogtips.com/do-small-d...-free-and-dcm/

    makes sense to me because I am old enough to remember and know that we don't raise chickens the same way our grandparents did. If taurine is involved, and I'm not even sure we're sure it is, then it would make sense for a healthy, mature, family-farm raised chicken to have higher levels of taurine than whatever's cheap at the discount supermarket.

    "Normal" isn't necessarily "better". I eat weird and my (human) family would LOVE to just put me on a strict diet of eggamuffins, whoppers, and Colonel McChicken to avoid the nuisance and embarassment.

    Sorry 'bout that--I'd rather hike in the woods, climb trees in my bare feet, and dance in the rain with my weird food and weirdly fed dogs than go to chemo and dialysis with my nurse just like everybody else.
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  11. #49
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Quote Originally Posted by laurelsmom View Post
    ITA; I don't even use kibble and this is just motivating me to learn more about canine nutrition and put their health above my squeamishness. There are vegan dog foods marketed to people like myself, who just like the idea of a "non-obligate carnivore" and don't want to be reminded that Precious Poochie Princess is actually a cold blooded killer of prey animals. Laurel eats and likes them and they are AAFCO formulated for all life stages. Sounds great (to veg*n me)in theory but how can that possibly be safer than Acana or Taste of the Wild? How can it possibly be unthinkably "bad" to stretch out prepared raw that is 90% meat, bones, and organs by adding a few spoonfuls or locally grown organic GMO-free quinoa instead of switching to Purina, Ol' Roy, or some other kibble with (moldy, unfit for human consumption)"cornmeal" as a first ingredient?

    This:

    https://littledogtips.com/do-small-d...-free-and-dcm/

    makes sense to me because I am old enough to remember and know that we don't raise chickens the same way our grandparents did. If taurine is involved, and I'm not even sure we're sure it is, then it would make sense for a healthy, mature, family-farm raised chicken to have higher levels of taurine than whatever's cheap at the discount supermarket.

    "Normal" isn't necessarily "better". I eat weird and my (human) family would LOVE to just put me on a strict diet of eggamuffins, whoppers, and Colonel McChicken to avoid the nuisance and embarassment.

    Sorry 'bout that--I'd rather hike in the woods, climb trees in my bare feet, and dance in the rain with my weird food and weirdly fed dogs than go to chemo and dialysis with my nurse just like everybody else.
    That link totally focuses on taurine though - not all dogs diagnosed with DCM had low taurine, so I'm not sure that's even the culprit.

    Found this too, from a board certified vet nutritionist

    https://www.petfoodindustry.com/blog...xU_cne1AvCB-IM

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